Rohadi: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Faith in a Fresh Vibe podcast. I am your host, Rohadi, recording on Treaty 7 Territory in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. This is also Métis Region 3 Final episode of Season 10. Faith in a Fresh Vibe is a podcast on decolonizing and deconstructing Christianity and Season 10 is a season on authors and their new book. Get ready to jump. One. Two. Did You make the jump? Welcome. Don't forget to leave a review. I say that off the top, so just leave a review wherever you're picking up this podcast. This episode closes out Season 10. How's it been for you? Don't forget to find all of these authors online. Follow them on social media. This final episode, I delayed it a little bit so it could coincide with the release date, which is coming in June. Janai Amon on deck. Janai has written a book called Othered, and we're going to [00:01:00] spend the next hour talking about her book, but also, fortunately, unfortunately, about church experiences that bring harm to those on the margins. That's her story, and I think one that resonates with many. That have found that unfortunate reality in church community. Take breaks in this podcast if you need to come back to it. There are a lot of different pieces and language to help those who are facing weird moments in church community, find their liberation. That's it. Season 10, final episode. Let's go. Jenai , welcome to the faith and the fresh vibe podcast. I am particularly. Thrilled. This is my thrilled voice. I'm particularly thrilled to have you on the show to talk about your forthcoming book, your debut, your debut book. Ooh, [00:02:00] debut book. Uh, but I think it's really neat. I don't know if I've mentioned this to you before. I think we have similar styles of writing. Jenai: Do we? I think so too. Rohadi: I enjoyed this book. I'm almost done now. I'm like. Even more excited for the next books that you write because it's like I want to see the expertise expand in your writing So you can chart the path of where I should go. So welcome. Jenai: Thank you Rohadi: We're gonna talk about your book Othered, but before we do that, I ask all the guests to situate themselves on the lands on which their feet are touching. So name the traditional lands and then get to know you a little bit about where you're situated, but also who are your people? Who are you? So Jedi, where are you right now? Jenai: Yeah, so I am in Houston, which is traditionally the lands of the Goil [00:03:00] Tecan and Sauna. Native Americans, like there's some overlap between the territories, but um, yeah. Cojotecán. I always wonder if I messed that up. Cojotecán. It's a beautiful word and it's actually, I think it's the, the northern part of Mexico, Coahuila, and then Tecon, Texas. So it's kind of that area is southeast Texas, the Houston area. Um, yeah, born and raised in this area. And I, I grew up, you know, 80 miles east of Houston. So same, maybe there were other, um, indigenous populations in that area, maybe the Anahuac. Um, Native Americans. I, there's all sorts of because it's the coastal plains. It tends to have been traversed and just because the land here is very fertile. Um, but yeah, I, I, I have been a lifelong Texan Southeast [00:04:00] Texas. Houston is where, what I would call home. I would say Houston is home. I did not grow up in Houston. I grew up in a small town called Nederland, Texas. Um, and Nederland, it's a strange, uh, like settled by Dutch Americans. Like our, we have like a windmill that, or we, I don't even, I haven't lived there. Um, like a windmill. And yeah. Um, it's just a strange small town, um, in that area. Houston is very diverse, that area. Neland, Texas is like, I think I looked it up the other day. I think it's like 85% white, um, 4% Asian, 4% black, like even smaller. Um, yeah. Yeah, it sounds like my high Rohadi: school. Yeah. Jenai: Yeah. So, uh, born and raised in that area. However, I am the daughter of a Filipina immigrant. So my mother is from, um, the, the Philippines and she grew up [00:05:00] north of Manila, so she wasn't in the city directly, but she was, she grew up in a city called Marikina and she came over to Texas. Of all places Rohadi: of all places Jenai: in the eighties and Rohadi: from Manila to needle. And I Jenai: know I, I, I, there, I feel like I need to unpack that with her and be like, well, and ask just why, but, um, for better for worse, she met my dad in this area. So my dad was also a lifelong Texan and he is a white man. So I am biracial. And I kind of grew up in this strange biracial household in Nederland, Texas, where everyone goes to church, if not in like the Southern Baptist denomination, then they were like, you were either Southern Baptist or, um, or no Catholic. Um, and there was a small sliver of like charismatic Pentecostal, non [00:06:00] nominational churches. And then there was my family, which was like, didn't believe in anything. Rohadi: Um, my Jenai: mom, because Catholicism is a big part of Filipino culture. I was baptized Catholic, but, um, yeah. So I, I feel like I'm, I transcend a lot of, like, I don't, I don't fit neatly in the boxes that they would have me check. Every year, whenever you filled out your information forms. Rohadi: Yep. Name that. I make my own box. Other. Yeah. When I am really other. Jenai: It's Rohadi: the title of your book. Oh my gosh. Jenai: I think I mentioned like having to check other as a marker of identity. Rohadi: Yeah. Yeah. There's just no box. Jenai: Yeah. Rohadi: Where do we fit? I wonder if that's changed now. Jenai: It has. Oh, it has. Like, you're allowed to check more than two boxes. Like, check all that apply. Rohadi: Oh, okay. Whereas Jenai: before, it was like, select one. And I was like, well Rohadi: White Jenai: other. Yeah. Rohadi: How's the [00:07:00] rodeo in, uh Neitherland. Neitherland. Jenai: Neitherland. Yeah. I've actually never, so I usually tell people I'm the most un Texan Texan. I never been to a rodeo. Rohadi: Oh yeah? Really? Yeah. Never had a steak before in your life? Jenai: Well, I have had steak. So odd. Rohadi: Oh, okay. But Jenai: I, I've never been to like the physical, like it just doesn't feel, I'm like, it's just too many people. Rohadi: Yeah. To me Jenai: it's like Disneyland, but without the fun, or Disney World without the fun. Like. Just hay. Rohadi: That's the cowboy Disney world, yeah. Jenai: And manure. Yeah. And loud people. I, so I've never been to a rodeo. Rohadi: They say that, uh, Calgary is the sister city of Houston, which I think maybe Calgarians know and Houston, it's like, nobody in Houston knows. It's just like we just named Houston. We just named a random sister city. That's basically like us, but, uh, [00:08:00] a little bit further away, oil town, rodeo town, steak town. Jenai: You know, I don't know if I told you this. I visited, like, my family visited Calgary Rohadi: in 2019 and I read about that. I was like, Jenai: Oh, Rohadi: I know that. Oh Jenai: yeah. Cause I did. I mentioned Alberta in my book. Yeah. Rohadi: Drumheller and the mountains, Canmore. Jenai: Yeah. Rohadi: Well, if we had only known each other three years earlier, Jenai: we would have toted Rohadi: around and shown you the mountains. Next time. Jenai: Well, if you ever come to Houston, I can show you the marshes. Rohadi: The m mmm. The bayous. Jenai: Flat. Rohadi: Nice. State. Detritus. Have that. Yeah. I've heard the food is very good in Houston. Oh, yeah. At least that's what all the food shows tell me. Jenai: Yeah. We'll feed you. Rohadi: I like feed. Jenai: Yeah. Rohadi: Well, we just went off, off, uh, the rails with Houston. Jenai: I know. We, like, I think because Where else Rohadi: do you want to go? With your people? We Jenai: know one another. [00:09:00] Yeah, with my people. I was going to say, I think because we know one another, you and I can just riff talking about random stuff, but my people, yeah, um, I guess I should say this because it is important and I think it's actually Very sad that most, like, white people don't know, like, the, their ancestry, but my dad's side, they were the Scottish people, and so, um, they were the, uh, McDonald's. Rohadi: Scottish. Jenai: Um, yeah, I'm Scottish, Rohadi: Scottish, Jenai: so I'm Scottish Filipina, which is like, uh, I, both Ireland people. Rohadi: Yeah. Jenai: So I get my freckles. Rohadi: Island people. Yeah. Jenai: They're both island people. Rohadi: Are we calling Scotland an island? Okay. Okay. Okay. Jenai: Well, it's a part of an island. Rohadi: We are island people. We're, we have that in common too. Jenai: So I always tell people, I say like the Philippines were Asian, but we're like, Rohadi: yeah, Jenai: we're like jungle Asian. Like we're Island Asian. It's kind of [00:10:00] different than Rohadi: the Texas of Asia. Jenai: Well, yeah, actually I think it was, it was a comedian, Joe Coy, who said, you know, Philippines is like the Mexico of Asia, Rohadi: but it's Jenai: totally true because Spain, so the Philippines, I, Rohadi: that's true. Jenai: They were colonized by Spain and, you know, have. endured a lot of like conquest where they had to fight for their own land by multiple people. So sometimes when I speak of colonization, I not only think about colonization within the Western context, but I'm trying to navigate what that means from like a perspective where I am decent, a descendant of people who have been colonized on their own homeland, but it's totally not I'm not indigenous to America. Rohadi: Yeah, but you carry that story, you carry that DNA. Jenai: Yeah, my indigenous people, yeah. Rohadi: How do you hold that? Well, that's, I've been toying with that book idea. [00:11:00] How do we hold that as being displaced people, but what if you're displaced upon displaced upon displaced? Like, where do you search or find yourself and your people? Jenai: Yeah. And what that does to your, like, are you familiar with like epigenetics and like the study of like Rohadi: how Jenai: trauma gets encoded in your DNA and I think like how has colonization not only affected my thought processes or anything like that, but how has it actually affected my body throughout generations that I am so far removed from? Rohadi: And I don't, I don't Jenai: know. I really don't know. Rohadi: Well, it's good to name that because I don't, I didn't have the language for that kind of stuff and I only briefly cursory look at it in my book to name like, oh, so in what way did the internment camps imprint on me in some obviously negative way. In what way, and then go further [00:12:00] back, has the displacement of my people from India and then me out of Trinidad, like, how does that imprint on me? And I, I don't know, but it could explain all this rage a hol I have in me. I just can't live without rage a hol! But maybe it does, you know? Classic, of course. Jenai: Yeah, I think it really does impact like how we, Rohadi: I Jenai: think it does. We just aren't as cognizant of like, Oh, this is the origin of like, this comes from this other thing that Rohadi: obviously, Jenai: yeah. Rohadi: So you grew up in Dutchville, Texas. Jenai: Mm hmm. Rohadi: At some point. You found Jesus, or Jesus found you. Jenai: Mm hmm. Rohadi: How did that go? Jenai: Yeah, I, um, I remember, I was 17, I usually say I came [00:13:00] to faith. Um, I think, you know, in years past, I would have said I was saved when I was 17. But my, I usually say I came to faith. Like I actually had some sort of faith in God, in Jesus. When I, when I turned 17, right around the time I like my 17th birthday. So we're talking, oh my gosh, almost 20, 20 years ago at that time, I, I had essentially Lost a lost in a really important person in my life, probably the person that, um, maybe, maybe other families aren't like this. Maybe you have a mom or a dad or like a ton of other caregivers who help anchor you to the world. I felt like I had one caregiver that helped anchor me to the world. That was my grandma. Um, I would say that she was like my securest attachment. Like she loved me unconditionally. She is the [00:14:00] person that made me feel seen, heard, known as a kid. And she died, um, just before I turned 17. And I just remember it was a, It was a crisis of worldview, really, like how do I exist in this world without the person who helped make sure that I wasn't tossed to and fro by the chaos of everything. And by the chaos of everything, I mean, like, you know, growing up and having a very I love both my parents, but we had a very unstable household, um, and I lost the person who gave me a sense of stability and I didn't know what to do, but I do remember like she came, she, she was a, a churchgoer. I am, I will have to admit, like her theology at the, you know, around the time, That she was taking me to church with her and my theology now are widely different like there are probably things that I do not adhere [00:15:00] to or hold to, but I know that she was a person of love. And so when she died and I, I could no longer just ride my bike to her house to whenever things got hard. So I literally got into my tiny red car. And drove to church one Sunday morning because I thought, like, she's taken me here. And I was looking for a place to go to when no place existed. And so it's kind of like, well, what do I, what do I grasp for whenever everything that you previously grasped for was taken away from you? And so church and community. And I essentially thought like church and community. Those are, like, there's, Those are the doorways to goodness. I didn't really see them as goodness in and of themself I thought they promised goodness and I'll see what that is. I Later learned that you know Jesus Jesus isn't only the way to a better life like he he is a part of the [00:16:00] good life And I think I I have now made that distinction, but I didn't make that distinction in the beginning I was just kind of searching for some sort of amorphous goodness. Um, and it eventually took shape in the person of Jesus. So Rohadi: did you start in evangelicalism at 17? Was that sort of the, the, um, tradition that the water that you immerse yourself in? Jenai: I would say actually that was a, it was a Pentecostal church, just like disguised as a non denominational church. I don't know if you're tracking with me, but like, Rohadi: it was Jenai: charismatic, spirit filled, speaking in tongues, tambourines. Rohadi: Yeah. Jenai: Um, Rohadi: tambourines with the little flags on them. Nice. Jenai: Yeah. Like it, it was, Rohadi: Tassels. That's it. Jenai: Yeah. Very triumphalistic. Um, very, um, I, I like kind of [00:17:00] shutter to say this because this is like, this critique was a critique that my, you know, later church would critique. They would say like, it was a very prosperity gospel driven church. So if you, I was saved into, if you just believe enough or do enough, then you will be given enough. Um, Rohadi: yeah, yeah, and Jenai: yeah, um, if you give more and like you will be given more and that was just totally not true. While I am grateful for how that church came around me. And grafted me in. I also now understand that there was a level of conformity that they wanted me to reach as well. Um, I just wasn't there long enough for them to hurt me. Um, I ended up, you know, getting married and moving somewhere else. And so, I have no doubt that Rohadi: Yeah, they would have got you. Jenai: I mean, actually, you know what? I spoke too soon. They did get me at one point. I do. [00:18:00] I just remember one time I was yelled at. I forget you always, I always forget the times I get yelled at. I remember I was dating. I was remembering the, uh, uh, I started dating my husband. He was my boyfriend at the time and we've been together forever, but I started dating him in high school around this time. And he was an SBC churchgoer. And I went to a Bible study of theirs and I remember just talking about this Bible study at my, you know, very charismatic church and they yelled at me, I guess, because they thought my attending a Bible study elsewhere was like a marker of like disloyalty. Rohadi: And Jenai: I remember being so confused why these youth leaders were yelling at me for going to a Bible study. Associated with another church. I mean, for the most part, I've shrugged that off. Like that's not really affected my psyche about the rest of my life, but I, every now and then I remember like, [00:19:00] Oh, that's a red flag that I should have identified. And then it never did because I didn't have the language to identify it, but yeah. Rohadi: Isn't that wild, like in church culture, maybe in culture in general, and I think this is shifting with generations, but there's just a lack of language, you use that term language, to name all the things that ain't right, especially when they hit us in supposedly safe spaces. And had we known a little bit more or had our parents showed us the things, the stranger danger even inside the house, uh, how much of that harm would have skipped us or perhaps we would have avoided because man inside that house, inside the church, there are a lot of different intersections or ways that can get us. Yeah. Yeah. Jenai: Yeah. Yeah, having the language and that's one [00:20:00] reason why I, I was, when I was searching for a title for the book, it started out as a book on, and I think it still is on religious trauma, but I thought, like, there are so many different, like, ways in which people experience this, that, like, Yeah. And sometimes trauma or abuse are really hard words to reach for, like we don't yet give us ourselves permission to use such language. And I thought like, yeah, I thought maybe othered is a bridge. Rohadi: To Jenai: understanding the ways that if you can't reach for betrayal or abuse in, in light of like naming your experience and can you at least reach for the word othered and maybe see the ways in which, you know, abuse, betrayal has at minimum other to you. Um, and scapegoated you from a place of belonging.[00:21:00] Rohadi: So fill in the gaps here as, as we transition from you met your husband, he was an SBC goer, you eventually, I guess, wound up in an SBC church, or yes, okay. And then at some point you came into church leadership and. That's when all the things that probably were already happening were amplified and the wheels came off. Jenai: We kind of meandered. I feel like it's not very linear. We kind of bounced from different churches and we eventually moved from Nederland, the very small town, Texas to Houston. And I remember leaving Nederland and talking to other people about like, how do you make friends in a brand new city? I've never [00:22:00] had to do that before. And one thing that people always said was like, find a church and just find a church and get plugged in. Rohadi: Yeah. Jenai: And so we found a church and we were there for four months and kind of regularly involved. And the young adult slash like youth pastor said, I'm planting a church. Will you, will you guys join me? And so we did. And I don't know if you want me to like name drop the network of the church, but, Rohadi: uh, yeah, but, uh, rhymes with faxed 49. Jenai: Yeah. I'm like reluctant to, cause I'm like, I don't know if you will actually come after me for saying anything bad, but, Rohadi: okay, Jenai: yeah, we were, we helped plant a, A church. No, no, you totally can leave it in. We, we planted a church inside the, when I say inside the loop of Houston, like there's multiple loops of Houston, like that you travel, Rohadi: the inner loop [00:23:00] is Jenai: like the inner city, like the city center. And so we moved there and we were told like, These are some of the most unchurched zip codes. I really don't know how much that is actually true or how much that was just like myth making in terms of making this church have its own, like, attractive Evangelical Rohadi: churches. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. That's Mythos. Everything else doesn't count. So I'm sure they did. Jenai: We moved into the Heights neighborhood of Houston and this is, you know, 2009. Um And we stayed there with this church until 2020. So we were there for a long time. And I say that not to say like, I was so loyal. I was so committed. No, like we stayed for so long. We saw a lot of mess and we saw a lot of like difficult things and still stayed. But then, you know, eventually coming not in only into church leadership, because we had been leaders for I was ordained as a deacon in [00:24:00] the church years ago, but I came on staff the last three years. And that's kind of when very thin veneer for me started cracking and splintering and no longer worked. Rohadi: You didn't. conform into the demands of the engine and church planting in for, for listeners, church planting and evangelical, which most church plants are out of evangelicalism. Um, the evangelical tradition nowadays, but, uh, they are generally built through a lens of like, who do we copy in terms of, of organization. And it's not church function, it's, uh, a corporate function. And so they sort of copy themselves off of, uh, business growth models or leadership. They say there's no discipleship summit. There's a leadership summit, leadership, this and that, and build leaders, build volunteers [00:25:00] to connect into the cog of the organization and in the machine. Yet we don't build a safeguards, uh, within that machine that. That would give pastors and leaders some semblance of competency to, uh, manage people. Because they're essentially managers and CEOs, but there's just no one's teaching of how to, uh, lead people well. And what you have instead is a total and utter and complete mess. And you ran straight into that. And almost from the get go, you notice that something wasn't right and you weren't going to twist and contort your body and your personhood to match the demands of those of, of leadership. Jenai: Yeah. Well, I would say in the beginning I started like twisting and contorting. Thinking, okay, this is [00:26:00] normal. Like, this is what you want me to do. We're being yelled at and no one else is saying anything. So I look wrong for speaking up and asking why I'm being yelled at. So I guess you want me to be quiet. So I did to some degree. Twist and contort, which I would say is like I betrayed myself and in my body and what my body was telling me wasn't right in so many instances until I could not do it anymore. Um, and like I, they wanted for our unity to flourish quote, like quote unquote flourish. Um, I had to be disconnected and disjointed internally, like their corporate unity depended on my internal breakdown, internal fractures, and so I just couldn't do it anymore. Rohadi: Dang. And you were speaking as someone who at that point was on staff, but I want to [00:27:00] name that what you have written on, uh, what we're talking about in this episode is for all of those who not, and it's definitely going to hit those who are folks on the margins of In staff positions and and it could be women in the church and predominantly, uh, patriarchal culture, but it could be anyone in leadership. It could be anyone in the congregation, but certainly something that leaders have often encountered and you are now naming all the things that ain't right to offer language to those who are like, uh, man, something in my body is not clicking here. You start your book by doing just that, offering language and naming, giving people permission. To believe that what they're facing and what they're incurring on their bodies is [00:28:00] real and that they can call that out. Jenai: Mm hmm. Rohadi: And you said that that was sort of fracturing for yourself and it started as a fracturing, that you were betraying your own self, but then you, you started to find, find voice. Jenai: I start the book by naming and giving language because I use that language throughout. Abuse or trauma can mean so many different things to people, but like I said, they're really hard to reach for whenever you've like been kind of conditioned to not see those things. And so I would say once I, Once I had language for what had happened to me, I mean, I was able to kind of clear the cloud and the smog of gaslighting and, Rohadi: uh, Jenai: like the amount of self betrayal and self denial, like I was able to find like empowerment. I, [00:29:00] that was one thing I like was never really encouraged and was empowered to use my voice. I was. Um, disciplined for using my voice for crying out and having that language and being able to stand firm on that gave me, you know, a bit of my agency back after like having spent so long without. Rohadi: Let's hit on three, two words that you used throughout the book as you were adding language. So you, you spell it out. And I think that's so crucial because those who don't know, uh, need to grasp onto something to make sense of what is happening. Spiritual bypassing you have used, and folks can listen to the Samadhi on spiritual bypassing. You just said gaslighting. Would you give us a, a, a, A quick synopsis of gaslighting in general. It doesn't have to be through your experience, but gaslighting and also you bring in a, [00:30:00] uh, Yeah. Jenai: Yeah. I think, um, so gaslighting comes from, I think it was an old movie and if you, if people Google it, they can find it, but it was essentially like a woman in a like toxic relationship or maybe I'm having it backwards as a man, but I'm almost certain as a woman, like gaslighting Okay. In that instance was it was actually gas lights that were kind of dimming and kind of and so gaslighting comes from this movie with this like really abusive relationship. But now gaslighting means that like we question our own like we have someone in our life who Benefits from us continuous, like continually questioning our reality, meaning they're trying to get you to, um, question yourself rather than questioning them. Because if they can get you to question yourself, then their behavior or their actions can go, uh, unnoticed or unpunished or, [00:31:00] um, whatever they like, they can freely move in the world because you are no longer able to name the ways in which they are abusing you or hurting you or harming you. Rohadi: Questioning, uh, your reality of and perception of your reality. Jenai: Yeah. Rohadi: And then there is another tool that is used to, uh, part of gas lighting, uh, that, that those in positions of authority and power, uh, utilize to protect that inherited power and authority. Jenai: Sometimes I feel, I guess maybe I, I'm in so many conversations with people, I feel like everyone knows DARVO already, but I know that many people don't. So I'll, I'll explain DARVO is an acronym D A R V O, and it stands for deny. attack and reverse the roles of victim and offender. And it was coined by, um, a researcher, Dr. Jennifer Freud, [00:32:00] um, and her book, um, Blind to Betrayal is really good. And I think she speaks of it there, but you can Google Darvo and come on her site and see like all sorts of resources. She, she has, but essentially whenever a, someone who's been hurt or harmed by another person, if they Bring their accusation forward and say, so and so hurt me many times to, you know, escape punishment. The offender will deny the accusation, attack the person who brought the accusation to everyone and then try to reverse the roles of victim of an offender, meaning. The person who was the victim has now become the offender through clever language and reframing of the whole situation. So, for instance, a pastor who has abused another person, if that congregant comes forward and says, this pastor hurt me, the pastor can deny and say, I would absolutely not do that. Um, they will attack the victim saying this [00:33:00] person's emotional or hysterical or crazy and then reverse the roles of victim and offender. They would might say this person is just persecuting me because they don't want me to be or they want me to be a pastor in a such a way like, they, they will use any sort of language to justify the fact that this victim just said this. Man abused me or this woman abused me. I don't want to like segregate like get, I mean, it's possible by everyone. But, um, it's really nefarious because then all the bystanders around them who were listening to this back and forth, and he said, she said, don't know what to believe because the pastor will use grace language or, um, gossip language. They're just gossiping. Why didn't you come to me by myself, Matthew 18, you know, like, why didn't you, why you did not follow the letter of the law? Well, like that, that's, Excuse and that, you know, that doesn't hold [00:34:00] when in instances of abuse, um, you don't get to reason behavior like that away, but in a perpetrator will try, they will try to confuse the narrative, um, so that they can roam freely. Rohadi: And so many pieces of that, and I can only think through my, my own language and formation as both a male and in church leadership of how, uh, we've been shaped and formed around not, uh, absorbing culpability, but rather switching narratives to just protect the self and protect the machine and protect the, uh, At the cost of people, uh, at the cost of the bodies by the wayside. And usually those bodies start with those on the margins. Jenai: Yeah. Rohadi: You extend a hand to those on the margins first, doing so through a prophetic voice by mimicking [00:35:00] Jesus and the work. The activity, the function, the ministry of Jesus who extended his hand to the margins first, switching, putting on its head the cultural assumptions by preaching the last shall be first. You use the story of finding your voice, and that's the story behind the scenes of your entire book. But you then frame these. steps to go through to help others. And, and this is maybe the first third, first half, but you, you are clear in that, by the way, if you've experienced these things, remember you are not alone, which is sad in the sense that you are not alone. The only person who has encountered these things, uh, but you are not alone. In your pursuit of ultimate liberation as well on the other side of it, as you were finding your voice and seeking your liberation that came at a substantial [00:36:00] cost, basically booted out a community and this is the penalty and also the, the cost is that in your case and for so many others, you lost your community. Jenai: Yeah, you have to, No, this, I'm a crier and every now and then it comes up, I think I'm okay. I think we're safe. I haven't thought about how much it costs in a really long time. Rohadi: Okay. We don't have to go there. Jenai: No, no, no, no. It's good. It's like, this is a really good question because I think this part is important. It did cost a lot. It cost, I mean, like I said, we weren't, we weren't there for, um, you know, only the three year, even if it was only three years, three years is a long time. We were there for 11 years. Um, we were a part of this church before the church had a name. I actually write under my first and my middle name, almond is a middle name from my Filipino side. Um, because if you Google my [00:37:00] first and my last name, you will find like the nonprofit filing. Documents for the church because I was a signing director of this church. Like that was how Bought in I was like, I thought I was going to I thought my funeral was going to be held in this church if i'm like being totally honest I thought like these will be my people. This is the building that my kids will get married in I really believed in all of that and you know in this toxic work environment. I lost all that I lost a community and I lost people There's so many people that were like really good friends. I still have not heard from, like they've never contacted me, Rohadi: never said Jenai: anything, never texted me. Rohadi: Yeah. Jenai: Um, and I'm talking about people who's, I was a bridesmaid in the wedding Rohadi: and Jenai: people who, who held my kids. I have two boys. Who held my kids the day they were [00:38:00] born. Um, people who, when Facebook or Instagram or whatever the app is, says, Hey, here's a memory from seven years ago. It's those people with my kids, you know? And so it cost. a lot and it hurt like hell. It was hell. Like that was hell. Um, I don't actually think like an eternal hell exists, but if the hell exists, it, I walked through it. Rohadi: Um, I would say, Jenai: yeah, a lot of belong, 11 years of belonging. Rohadi: Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. Jenai: Being ride or die. Rohadi: Yeah. Yeah. Jenai: Or a place. Rohadi: Yeah. Yeah. Jenai: But at the, in the end I realized that belonging required belonging to them required my bondage. And I, I, this is where I get emotional. Cause it's true. They wanted me. They wanted me in bondage. They [00:39:00] wanted me to, you know, they wanted me to continue to perpetuate the narrative that they were sharing. And I couldn't do that anymore. Like they were a semblance of institutional integrity. They required that my integrity be broken. And I don't think that that is the gospel of Jesus. That is not the shalom of God. That is not restoration. Rohadi: That's Jenai: not reconciliation. And I, so it costs a lot and also, and I think this is the reason why I haven't thought about the cost in so long. I'm so glad I walked through it. I walked through all of that because if. If my brothers and pastors had not done what they did to me, I would still be there. I would still be in bondage and I might be one of the members of the church who was not contacting some other person that was scapegoated Rohadi: or you know [00:40:00] what Jenai: I mean? Rohadi: Like I, Jenai: I wanted to belong so badly and I think I would still be there. I actually had an opportunity to tell one of the pastors, like my brother, That and when I say pastor, like these guys were my age, the pastor I just had coffee with this last summer. He's a year older than me. So it's not like I'm talking to 60 years. Like these are really brothers. Some of them I was closer to than more than others, but I told him I'm, I don't. Condone the ways in which you treated me. And I would hope that I would never do anything like that to another human being, but it took for me to leave, for me to be liberated. I think I needed to die in the ways that I had to die to belonging, um, in that church so that I could, for me to be resurrected, to live into resurrection, I needed to die [00:41:00] to life in that church. It does, it does stir like a lot of like gratitude in me. When you can reach gratitude after counting the cost, I'm not saying that's like total healing, but I'm, I'm not saying it's not healing either. It's peace. Yeah. A peace that surpasses all understanding. Rohadi: Your voice, as you are naming these aspects of harm, not only does naming the St. Right come with a substantial cost in the relationships, a fracturing of relationships, [00:42:00] the other end of that is the possibilities of liberation surrounding the idea of belonging to yourself. Jenai: Oh, yeah. I think the first thing that happened when we left our, our former church. And here's the thing. They were still welcoming me into belonging after like church firing me. They never fired me. They, they were just like, we're transitioning you out and giving you an informal off ramp with no choices. Um, like using the most polite language to do. Yeah. Rohadi: Yeah. Jenai: And we sent a letter, my husband and I sent a letter saying, you know, like, And I actually quote some of that letter, um, as sheep, we need to be shepherded elsewhere. Like you have, our experience here has colored our leadership of church people, like just church pastors in general. Like we have to [00:43:00] leave. Rohadi: Yeah. You named it. Jenai: I was, I was told that the next staff meeting after sending that letter out, people cried. At the staff meeting. Rohadi: And I thought they they told you that? Jenai: Yeah. Yeah. And I thought as if what didn't , why didn't they cry when they fired me or whenever I, I told them how much pain, oh, they, Rohadi: they're crying because you've decided to leave. Jenai: And I decided to leave and not take it anymore to continue the mythos of the church narrative. And so I laugh, Rohadi: but that's, uh, Jenai: it's ridiculous. For anyone that is familiar with like Enneagram language, I know that Enneagram is not everything, but it's helpful sometimes. I'm an Enneagram too. So being loved and finding people to belong with and, um, feeling not abandoned as an Enneagram, like that is a fear of the Enneagram too, is not being abandoned. And I had essentially suffered the Mount Everest of abandonment by, by, in many ways, our [00:44:00] former church was the restored, forged family. That I didn't have in childhood, and it was this church that I wanted to give my kids that sense of family that I never had as a kid. And it felt like it was obliterate like nuclear. It was just, yeah, it was totally nuclear over time. I thought I want to belong somewhere. Actually, I did. reach out to one of the, one of those pastors in the book left to plant another church. He also saw the environment as toxic, but he responded in a different way. And he had power and he and church funds to go plant his own church. Um, I actually asked him, I said, can I, can our family belong to your church? And, um, he, he wanted me, I mentioned this in the book, he wanted me to be reconciled with the other pastors before I could join, like my belonging somewhere depended, yes. And it was really [00:45:00] that moment in, uh, Rohadi: Ugh. Gross. With Jenai: the pieces of many other moments where I realized I need to figure out who I am and who I am not. Rohadi: Yeah. So you don't. Jenai: Because what if he did say, yes, you can be a part of the church, but then still required self betrayal in ways that I couldn't detect. Rohadi: Yeah. Yeah. Jenai: And I needed to start naming those things. I needed to know what it meant to like live in my body. And much of that included. And for my personal story, like acknowledging that I was the only minority staff member on the church. Not only that, like the only minority, I would say the pop, like the number of congregants who were a part of minority popularly. And I'm talking about BIPOC community disabilities, like neurodivergent, like. Less than 10 percent maybe and I, I needed to realize like how much I had. [00:46:00] erased parts of my identity to belong. And I needed to acknowledge that I was at risk of continuing to erase myself if I jumped into a new community too early. Rohadi: I want to stop you there because you just named something that I think I want to circle back on and just bold and emphasize and italicize and uh, increase font. What you just named around erasing. Parts of your identity to belong in the church community. It could be any community, but a church community that is so pervasive in church culture. Jenai: Mm-Hmm. . Rohadi: It's sad, but that is a clue that if you can't live out your whole self, it is entirely unlikely. I wanna say it's impossible, but unlikely. That you ever will. Yeah. And you there needs to be now a [00:47:00] pathway. To figure out what, wait a minute, why would I, and that's the power of community and the possibilities of belonging that you might. Give up a shred of yourself and maybe more just to find belonging. As they say, sometimes you do whatever you got to do to get a hug. Jenai: Yeah. And I didn't want to do that anymore. Like if I were to be hugged, I want to be hugged by someone who knows and accepts me as I am, not as not requiring me to erase parts of myself so that I was more palatable to hug. Rohadi: One of the questions that I ask a lot of guests, especially if they're, they are those who have gone through the Miry Clay, um, I don't know if those two words are correct going together, but that I ask, well, what is this picture? Like what is perhaps the answer, but what is the preview, the clue of what [00:48:00] that life giving community can look like? And you sort of trail off in your book about what aspects, components, this community that Welcomes all folks to belong and be whole looks like. Jenai: Yeah. Rohadi: Let's trail off with, I think it's like the final three chapters of your book, but trail off with components and, and previews of what that, I don't want to say what that hope look, well, no, it is, it is the hope, what that possibility looks like. Jenai: Yeah. Oh, I'm glad you said kind of like the community. I never thought about, and I would, if somebody would have asked me before, I would have said, I don't talk about community or like forging a community, but I really do. There are certainly components there. Yeah. The last three chapters shift into like healing or like not only healing, like when you've healed, when you've gone through, when [00:49:00] navigated the wilderness, what does it look like to then? Like move forward. Othered is a word that, um, it's so funny, when I was pitching the book, they were like, isn't it a little, you know, negative? And I thought I was going to have to fight for it to be the title of the book. And I thought, yeah, maybe it's negative to other people, but I actually think that there is a blessing to our otherness. Rohadi: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the wilderness chapter. Oh, we don't have time for the wilderness chapter. You and I can talk about, Jenai: we can just have a whole wilderness like podcast episode if you want, but Rohadi: it's just called the podcast, the wilderness. Uh, Jenai: but like, I think in a, in a toxic system. And there are multiple toxic systems, the powers and principalities of darkness in the world. In these toxic systems, there are a privileged few that benefit. Rohadi: [00:50:00] Yeah. Jenai: So those who tend to not benefit from the system are the marginalized. And so I argue that the marginalized, the othered. Are those who have been chewed up and spit out by the powers and principalities of the world are blessed because they can name the system that is not only oppressing them, but oppressing everyone too, because the system only works if everyone keeps like, why is burnout a thing in our culture? And burnout is a thing that not only exists for, you know, marginalized folks, but like, there's white people burning out who were CEOs, who were Rohadi: whatever, like they Jenai: are in bondage. They may have billions of dollars, but they are also in bondage to the system of economics that says like your soul for profit. Yeah, I argue that the othered are blessed because they can see the systems of the world. They can see how the system is hurting other people, and they are the [00:51:00] ones who are capable of providing language to build bridges so that not only are they free, but they become like an agent of freedom for others. I think of, gosh, I'm in a social justice and spirituality class right now. And so I think of people like Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King Jr. Mother Teresa. I mean, there's so many people who are margin who were able to be an agent of liberation or an agent of reconciliation. They, they could see the fractures. of society that needed to be made whole. And so not only are the other blessed, but the other have the opportunity to bless people like them. Uh, or not like them, I'm sorry, they, they are able to bless people who are vastly different from themselves. I, I talk about repentance and not such that like the other have anything to repent for. Like, you know, like I don't have to apologize to somebody else for the ways that I've been hurt, [00:52:00] but my repentance includes turning away from a culture that would have me perpetuate the systems of the culture, Rohadi: but you can't do that alone. Jenai: No. Absolutely. So I had to, I had to find and forge community in different ways through a lot of online friendships and, and realizing like people who existed outside who weren't benefiting from systems. I had to find those people to kind of, you know, And like read those stories in scripture to have language to put that into my life and only after navigating like these components of like living as othered in a the best. I think the other are beautiful. I think weirdos, freaks, um, people on the margins, people who see things from a different angle. I think they, they are kind of the gilded gold. If [00:53:00] you're familiar with Kintsugi, like the art of broken pottery, um, Rohadi: the gold, yeah, the, Jenai: the gold is not a part of the overall system of the pottery. It's a, it's a weird, it's a weird, but beautiful thing that is used. the gold and the glue to like bring pieces back together. I think the other are the gilded pieces of gold that exist in our society. Rohadi: Oh, what a metaphor to produce a new beautiful thing. Jenai: Yeah. And that is, that is bringing heaven on earth if in shadows now, but like in fullness later, like now we see in part and then we shall see fully. And I think the other actually have the language and the ability. be able to do that and name that. Um, yeah, like they are able to see the abiding love [00:54:00] of Jesus, who loved people on the margins, the lepers, the weirdos, the, the unclean, um, the unsaved, but, and in the end, I, I was, Reluctant to talk about forgiveness Rohadi: because it's in the book. Yeah. Yeah. That's the get out jail free card. Jenai: Yeah In the end, I was able to forgive My pastors not trust them. We are not in we are no longer in a trusted relationship Where they can betray me again or even exert power over me. There's a boundary there and I'm not crossing it But I was able to forgive them because I realized that the ways in which they were treating me were the ways in which they were Rohadi: discipled Jenai: to conform to and treat others. Rohadi: So Jenai: the system had already chewed them, like chewed them down. Maybe it hadn't spit them out, but it had chewed them down [00:55:00] into bite sized morsels and they were willingly conformed. Rohadi: I think Jenai: that there is a beauty in not being willing to conform and while it hurt like hell to be Chewed up and spit out it it brought a peace a liberation a goodness Like I I now have a much more comprehensive holistic idea of goodness that I think is offered to everyone in God Um, and it's no longer limited only to those who, who conform to same. Rohadi: That you were able to come to the place that you're at right now, perhaps miraculous, but a miracle that I think all folks who are incurring or have incurred the magnitude yet typical harm that is [00:56:00] found in the toxicity of church leadership and. Church community structures, uh, you preview the possibilities that liberation is within grasp. It's, it's there and you can touch it and grasp it. And it comes with this cost. Unfortunately, Jenai: something has to die, [00:57:00] Rohadi: but something has to die for new life to emerge.