Matte
Rohadi  00:00?
Season 10, Episode 73 I am your host Rohadi coming at you from Treaty 7 territory in Calgary, Alberta, ?
Canada. This is the Faith in a Fresh Vibe podcast, a podcast on decolonizing and deconstructing ?
Christianity. Let's go.?

Rohadi  00:25?
Episode 73 features my friend, Dr. Matt Downey. We'll get into all of the particulars. Of who, where, ?
what, when, how. I've had the pleasure of endorsing a number of books this season, including Dr. ?
Terrence Lester, Jenai Auman, who you're going to hear from in the New Year; Trey Ferguson, and the ?
book we talk about in this episode, Go Wide. There are a couple of books that I think are shifting the ?
landscape of Christianity, where they are my go to books to recommend to folks who are trying to figure ?
out what it means to hold their Christian faith in the modern world. This is one that unpacks theology in ?
a wide expansive imagination. Don't want to say any more about it. Wherever you're at, right? Share ?
this podcast to all your friends who are on the deconstructing and decolonizing journey. And you can ?
email me let me know what you think just by signing up for the newsletter that's on my website row ?
hattie.com. Without further ado, let's jump into this conversation with Dr. Matt Downey.?

Rohadi  01:42?
The question I ask all visitors to the show is to name the traditional lands on which they are currently ?
situated on so where are you? At this moment??

Matte  01:55?
I am on the Indigenous territory of the Kanien'kŽha Nation, known as Jo Jovi or Montreal.?

Rohadi  02:07?
I think a city needs to be a certain level of cool before you hit boroughs. Or do they call them boroughs? ?
Or arrondissement in Montreal??

Matte  02:19?
maybe in French...no it's boroughs.?

Rohadi  02:23?
It's kinda like a New York thing. ?

I feel like the last time we saw each other in person was when we were in Montreal, and I was in ?
Montreal, but it was a vineyard national conference, of which I'm no longer in that mix. And people in ?
folks and listeners know that story. I don't want to speak for you of what your relationship with the ?
vineyard churches of Canada is now.?

Matte  02:51?
I am no longer associated with the Vineyard in our community, It was it was the only vineyard church in ?
Quebec.?

Rohadi  03:07?
The Vineyard, I think it was 2019 was, time flies during pandemic, but the Vineyard churches of Canada ?
doubled down. Kind of funny that they doubled down earlier than a lot of other denominations are ?
doubling down now. But it's just it's the normal, unfortunately, normal iteration of more conservative ?
leaning denominations to be doubling down on same gender, same sex marriages are the traditional ?
man and woman definition of marriage unless you're the SBC. And your biggest problem is whether ?
women can even be ministers. So sounds like everyone's kind of not everyone. But these, these were ?
in an age where everything seems backwards, and some are even further behind than others. But your ?
church was not initially one that had left in 2019 when that decision came down, is that right??

Matte  04:08?
It was I think, end of 2020. Because I know it was pandemic already. When I think they started the ?
process, the discernment process, they had a whole course that people went through. So they tried to ?
have a process where they took about 100 of the leaders through, right and then at the end of that ?
statement was very quickly put out that this is our statement. So anyway, I won't get into that. But that ?
was it came out. And if 2020 very early, I think early 2021. And we and we were told if you can't I forget ?
the exact language. If you're not comfortable with this statement or can't get behind it or speak ?
positively about it. Then we're probably we invite you and to journey on another path. I know. That's ?
how it was said. So we almost kind, almost it sounds but it's not as exclusion is never kind. So our ?
church, we were at that time we had we had resigned as being pastors. So our church said, well, we ?
can't, then I guess we have no choice then they couldn't journey within the vineyard anymore. And we ?
as leaders, were asked to step down from all our roles, we were on the national team, and asked to ?
give up all our roles and step away, so we did.?

Rohadi  05:39?
let's go down that road of exclusion is never kind. You have a book that is now available. And it is ?
tracking, partly your story of exclusion in the church, which I think would resonate with many people ?
who are on a similar path of trying to figure out where they now belong. And faith traditions are a faith ?
formation that has built dividing walls within them, and said, has said, some piece of them doesn't fit. ?
introduce us to your latest publication, and how it is ushering in expansive, theological imagination. ?

Matte  06:40?
Yes, and just to clarify, it really doesn't stem from my exclusion from the Vineyard or reference, ?
particular experience at all. It's much more just a general exploration of expansiveness, in the world of ?
theology, meaning how we think about God, how we interact with each other, and community, how we ?
think about church structure even and how we interact with the biblical texts. I go through this a bit in ?
the introduction, I talk about how I was raised on the Canadian Prairies. And if you've ever been on the ?
Canadian Prairies, you know, the endless horizon that you see, and the expanse of sky, how wide ?
everything seems. And I love that about my formational years growing up in a, in a place that seems so ?
spacious. And the contrasting part to that was I grew up in quite a conservative Mennonite community, ?
where things were quite constrained and restrained and constrictive. So you know, there were the ?
outsiders and the insiders in the community and went to a church where, I mean, it wasn't the most ?
conservative church, like the Old Colony churches, where you dress in black and men and women sit ?
on different sides. And, you know, no instrumental music, we weren't quite that way. But it was more ?
like a conservative Baptist kind of setting. But you know, you have to kind of toe the line with the ?
theology. I never saw any women in leadership. There was like the brotherhood that got to vote. And it ?
was quite a narrow way of being in the world. And I know that that was a reaction against the religious ?
persecution that the Mennonites came out of, in Eastern Europe. So I understand part of that was a ?
restriction of protectiveness, survival skill, almost. But then it carries over from generation to generation ?
to generation, and it just becomes endless narrowness, kind of. And so this book is written, I want to ?
situate who I was and my story so that people would know this is where my theological thinkings come ?
from. It's not detached and I'm not writing objectively, so to speak. I'm writing as a subject within the ?
theological world.?

Rohadi  09:06?
I'm sure there isn't one moment in time. But can you name catalysts along the way that offered guide ?
posts to a more expansive imagination? Where you could see you could glimpse along that expansive ?
prairie blue sky, a possibility of something better where you could experience a greater degree of ?
freedom in your own personhood??

Matte  09:45?
Definitely.?

Matte  09:46?
I think the first one was just travel, seeing different places, different landscapes, different ways of being ?
so I grew up on a farm so just traveling to different cities. I went this is a whole different way. of being ?
traveling to different parts of the world eye opening, and then going to study theology. First of all in ?
Bible school, which was still quite constrained, but later on, I studied theology in a university setting. So ?
it's not a seminary, there is no, we're teaching a specific set of doctrines that follows a tradition. You get ?
to study all the traditions I'm studying alongside people who are agnostic, or atheist, or Greek ?
Orthodox, or Catholic, or used to be Catholic, or just have a lot of questions or interested in religion for ?
some reason. So the study and the learning the learning environment, I should say, where we are ?
encouraged to ask questions, where we are encouraged to think outside the box, and come up with ?
new ideas and ways of looking at things, especially in graduate school. That, for me, was a huge, open ?
door to moving beyond a very small space and how I thought about God and interacted with God.?

Rohadi  11:09?
I'll use this word or this term, but I'm sure there's a better one was there a moment or a crisis of faith, ?
that's the term where your paradigm is kind of shattered when you are exposed to these, I guess, ?
imagination, or ideas that are far wider than anything you'd experienced before that bring you to a point ?
or crossroads with really questioning your past formation??

Matte  11:39?
Indeed, I remember a few moments. One was in that very first class I took in the university. And just as ?
an offhand comment, one of the professors said in one of the first classes, well, of course, there's no ?
literal Adam and Eve, we all know that and just went on lecture and I went, what, okay, don't show ?
surprise on your face, because maybe I'm the only one that didn't know that. What do I do with this? ?
And there were many more moments like that, where I went, I am just really behind on what the current ?
scholarship is, in biblical exegesis and interpretation. And there were several moments where I found ?
like my feet, like the ground underneath me is moving and shifting. And my question was, if part of the ?
ground moves or gives way, does the whole thing collapse? Yeah, I think I asked that. Felt that quite a ?
few times. But then I changed the metaphor of the ground moving underneath me to will maybe I'm on ?
a ship, maybe I'm on a boat. And movement is totally natural and normal, and I just need to get my sea ?
legs a little bit. I'm drowning, we're just moving. And we're in a boat with other people. And that's totally ?
normal and okay, and don't panic. ?

Rohadi  12:58?
Really enjoy the metaphors that you've used throughout your book? ?

Matte  13:01?
Well, I think it's one of Jesus strength and the writers in that Hebrew Bible, like their culture, culture. ?
Yeah, some cultures are more storytelling cultures and more metaphor heavy in how they communicate ?
and pass on ideas. English, I don't think is one of them. And the Western culture doesn't seem to have ?
a rich storytelling history. That's not how values are passed on. We have more Creed's doctrines, rules, ?
principles, how to books, whatever it is, we pass on our values. So I think I am naturally drawn to them. ?
I love a good story. I love a good metaphor, because to me, they're much more delightful, and they ?
open things up instead of closed things down. So this idea of certainty, pin it down to that one thing that ?
we know is true. And then do that. Metaphors go, Well, have you thought about this, and maybe this ?
side of that, and there's another side you could look at? And just explore it for a bit? So I'm much more ?
drawn to that. So I hope yes, that metaphors are one of my strengths and communicating and inviting ?
others into looking at things, maybe with new eyes in some way.?

Rohadi  14:17?
I want to come back to the use of metaphor as you juxtapose metaphor to our formation, which is ?
predominant in the West, around certainties, and you named doctrines and creeds and so forth, that for ?
those who are I'll use the term deconstructing out of their out of old faith formation, that this sounds like ?
a tool, an approach to help guide a reframing of face moving forward through the language of metaphor ?
and storytelling. Before we get there was there a time as your faith paradigm was shifting, where you ?
started to notice malformed power structures.?

Matte  15:14?
It's hard to pinpoint exactly when that started for me, but I, but I know strongly now what keeps doing ?
that. And that is listening to voices that are have had a different experiencing experience than I have, ?
and especially voices that have in history been colonized or been taken over and appropriated and ?
used for someone else's success, basically. And so I've tried to fill my feed with those voices that ?
critique, even some of my experience, because I don't know when I can't see it, unless someone from ?
the outside said, Hey, what you're doing is not helpful. In fact, it's harming it making it's making things ?
narrow. For someone like me, and I go, Oh, I did not see that before. Good to know. Thank you, I need ?
to change how I think about that, how I interact with that, and how I act moving forward. So I know there ?
are a few times when I heard something from whether it's the black community, or the indigenous ?
people that I'm going, Oh, my goodness, the things I assume that's just how we are in the world, or how ?
we think theologically, are really all like you say malformed, and I have to deconstruct them tear those ?
down, and build good structures where good fruit can grow and mixing my metaphors there.?

Rohadi  16:42?
Did you find that you needed language to name the the malformed powers that were affecting your own ?
self? Because you certainly start in and around. And I'll use these terms around the power of ?
patriarchy. I found that throughout your book as one of these things that was withholding the pathway ?
for you to be your whole self, did it strike you at some moment? Was it a slow degradation of ?
worldview? Or was it just always known??

Matte  17:24?
I think it is. I think it's a slow on doing of patriarchy, because that's the one that I think has affected me ?
personally the most. And because I'm a woman who exists in theological spaces, and church spaces, ?
and church leadership spaces I did. That is where I felt the constriction and the pressure kind of, or the ?
claustrophobia even the most. I was just normal. And I didn't know that there could be another way, for ?
a long, long time. And then I started to notice that, oh, men talk over me, men interrupt me, men ?
dismiss what I'm saying, men don't even ask to hear from me, I can be quiet the whole time. And they ?
don't seem to notice. And then I and or they take up a lot of space. I'm very space conscious. And this, ?
this just happened to me, you know, just a few weeks ago, where I was talking to someone, and it was ?
at a book event. So I was kind of like people came there to hear me your book, my book. And this man ?
came up to me and said, I have a question which it wasn't really a question. He just wanted to confirm ?
something that he was talking about. And then he went on and talked and talked and talked and talked ?
and I thought I don't think there's any interaction happening here. I think you're just taking up a lot of ?
space. And I went, Wow, that's the quickest I've ever realized that usually it gets takes me till the next ?
day to realize I was diminished in a space by a man felt it was totally normal and his right to take up ?
most of the space. Even when I'm the so called expert in the room. ?

Rohadi  19:14?
Your own space. Your name is on the poster. That's gross.?

Matte  19:21?
Yeah. No.?

Rohadi  19:24?
You name patriarchy, but in fact, your experience in the way that you then dismantle many of these ?
systems of oppression by offering a renewed set of eyes or that wider imagination includes different ?
intersections. And you have in your book here, a Jesus, the revelation of Jesus of one who dismantles ?
power structures is a very different Jesus to the one that upholds them. And, to quote The God ?
revealed in Jesus is the same Christ revealed and Revelation the Lamb that was slain. Jesus never co ?
opted the power of empire. And its accompanying military prowess, to inaugurate the kingdom of ?
heaven. Which, and I said this off air, we're like in an in a time where the the contemporary version of ?
Christianity like a Jesus Christianity is different and it's in fact subverting Christianity, Christianity is ?
subverting Christianity, of power of empire, that has has been not only ignored, but we've in many ways ?
been called to dismantle, through the teaching of Jesus of last shall be first, I'm thinking through the ?
lens of someone who is trying to meander through the possibilities of their Christian faith that is more ?
life giving. Can you kind of give us the different malformed power structures that are at play in our faith ?
formation that we need to start touching to undo? And then the second part of that question will be, ?
what would be the more expensive way??

Matte  21:17?
That's a really intense question.?

Rohadi  21:20?
That's huge. It's big. It's ridiculous.?

Matte  21:23?
And a good one. A good ridiculous question. But that's interesting, because you say there's malformed ?
routes, I think you use that word. And we can't really see the roots unless we expose them. But I think ?
for the, for the most part, what I first noticed is fruit that's not beautiful fruit that's ugly, or malformed or ?
smaller than it should be or almost non existent. So I look at, like, one of the things I'm noticing right ?
now is, why are the conservative Christians in my life, the meanest people I know? Like, I don't ?
understand that. And I go, Oh, that's a sign of something else going on. So we've got malformation ?
happening in in somewhere. So that's my first kind of clue that something's right. Is the meanness that ?
people have? The second one I have is that people that aren't interested in learning, they're not curious ?
about hearing from someone else? Who might think differently or have a different experience? There's ?
just a desire to declare something? And have you go along with that? Like, if there's no curiosity, then ?
why are we? Why are we interacting with each other, we should be curious and delighted with other ?
people, and especially those who have different experiences and are not like us, this should be a ?
delightful thing for us. Instead of trying to be really in a homogenous kind of setting of a monolith kind of ?
way of looking at the world, or experiencing God, and the impulse, and maybe it's a human impulse, I ?
don't know, we're insecure people, in many ways. To, may be seen as better than, or more successful ?
than or more in the know, or more in the right, or more whatever, than someone else. And I think as ?
soon as we do that, we have jumped into hierarchy. And what I'm trying to do in this whole book is ?
dismantle or dismiss hierarchy and say, Is it possible to exist in a world where hierarchy is not a thing, ?
where side by side, we're always side by side, we're not trying to be one up or one over or lorded over ?
or be better than all the superlatives. We're not trying to live that way. We're really trying to live side by ?
side lives. And I think if soon as I see someone trying to best someone, and I've done this myself, I've ?
had theological discussions with someone and thought, oh, yeah, I got, I proved my point. You were ?
wrong. And now I bet they feel stupid. And I think I've jumped into an unhelpful paradigm right there. ?
And I used to read the stories of Jesus that way, because Jesus was very clever. Okay. Yeah. ?
interactions. And I think how Jesus got them, ya know, and Jesus never did gotcha. I don't think he did. ?
I started reading those stories in a different way and said, I don't think there are gotchas there at all. I ?
think Jesus is inviting people to think differently. And a lot of times people couldn't so they walked ?
away. But I think Jesus was sad about that. I don't think he felt like, Ha got them.?


Rohadi  24:44?
As you were saying, curiosity i i recall an episode with Karen keen who was on and and one of the keys ?
to approaching scripture is humility, and curiosity. It strikes me as a product of humility.?

Matte  25:03?
It means we're not threatened. We haven't put up that defense wall. We're just it's the childlike posture ?
of I'm open. Oh, look, a giant snake. Isn't that fascinating? You know, there's no, the danger filter hasn't ?
really said in which we do need sometimes. But the it's the openness, the on defensive posture.?

Rohadi  25:25?
Hmm, yes. So that that is distinctly countercultural to so much of, of conservative Christianity in the ?
West. One that here's another line, which comes out of your book, he understood that a kingdom based ?
in love, a love that extends even to one's enemies cannot be experienced within the paradigm of ?
domination.?

Rohadi  25:56?
Okay, if we're not dominating, if we're not protecting our, our faith, come on, we have to be protectors ?
and have an answer all the time for the questions about our faith. What other possible way could there ?
be? That's a big fear isn't that for for folks, especially, I mean, conservative traditions are all about ?
protecting or preserving what was in fear. ?

Matte  26:24?
Gosh, fear gets in the way fears of paralyzer. But this idea of conservative and that not everything is ?
bad about conservatism, because you're trying to conserve something and you absolutely need to ?
conserve some things you can't spend or give away or just yeah, there's some things that are worth ?
conserving and putting energy towards that. But I think the very nature of protecting and putting up ?
boundaries and making sure that this thing is conserved is we have to be very, very cautious about how ?
much we use that kind of conserving energy. There have to be other energies that balance that out.?

Rohadi  27:00?
Well, that's another book right there. Maybe it's a self help book. ?

Matte  27:05?
No. We need more. Yeah. Just one more.?

Rohadi  27:16?
I don't know if you use the words of hermeneutic, or lens, but you're presenting a new set of lenses to ?
interpret Scripture.?

Matte  27:27?
System? No, I say I'm an unsystematic, systematic field theologian

Rohadi  27:35?
that says on the business cards

Matte  27:40?
on the letterhead, yeah. For anyone who sends actual letters,?

Rohadi  27:42?
or give me an idea that didn't make letterheads. Okay, I'm gonna stick with lens here, and hermeneutic. ?
So let's take that for a ride then, when we think of, not systems, but a new set of eyes to read or ears to ?
hear of popular Bible stories. So you just named before, a way to de hierarchical. That's a funky word.?

Matte  28:15?
I like it. Let's make up words.?

Rohadi  28:17?
Let's let's try it with a story. I think. Because there are many stories out there that we either struggle ?
with or we all know if you grew up in the church, and to hear them and fresh ways. It can be a catalyst ?
unto renewed thinking and experience to to in the very least realize, Oh my gosh, there's a different ?
way that I can interpret or understand these stories. Let's go to Tower of Babel. Yes. Okay, this story, ?
you know, people were trying to build a really tall monument to the sky because they wanted to be like ?
gods too. And then God disperse them, punish them. And then they all had funny languages. They ?
couldn't speak the same. They went off into the four corners of the earth, and it's supposed to be a ?
story about don't try to amass yourself to the wealth of gods or something like that. I get the picture ?
Bible version. ?

Matte  29:19?
Pretty much and pride is terrible.?

Rohadi  29:21?
Pride. Yeah. Look how high you went. And look how low you are. No, yes. Okay. Is there? Is there a ?
Martha life giving way? Like, offer us a reimagination? Now of of this story??

Matte  29:35?
Yeah. So when I look at that story, actually take a few steps back and say, Where does this why is this ?
story? They're like, what's happened beforehand? So what happened right before that was the story of ?
Noah and kind of the people getting wiped out. So they're starting over, it's a people starting over from ?
nothing. And so they're a bit Survival mode. So then they get to this place and they go, okay, they're in. ?
They're pioneers, basically. So they get to a place. And what do we do, we build a central kind of ?
building or place to gather, which would be a tower. And this then gives them a sense of security and ?
safety, to have that. And they want to make a name for themselves, it said, and we tend to think of that ?
a bit negatively, Oh, that guy wants to make a name for himself. But it's actually, I don't think it's a ?
negative thing, wanting to make a name for yourself just speaks of you want legacy you want your ?
name to carry on, you want ancestors, you don't want to be wiped out again. And we see this naming of ?
the ancestors all throughout the Hebrew stories, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that's making a name for ?
yourself a name that carries on as a legacy and gives carry forward and you have ancestors, so you're ?
not wiped out. So if we look at this as a story of survival, and people just wanting stability and safety, ?
the impulse is natural. But what comes with that stability and safety is a monolithic culture. Just we are ?
the people, and we were afraid of outsiders. And this is my whole history of people fleeing persecution, ?
building small agricultural communities, building community churches that they all gathered around, and ?
then not wanting outsiders around. So we all look the same in the community. That's my history, ?
basically, in a nutshell. And then God not staying far off in the story. But coming down to walk among ?
the people and saying, This isn't good. This is all becoming one thing. And I think it's Brueggemann ?
actually said, this is a second man, a second reiteration of the mandate to be fruitful and multiply, be ?
diverse, to spread out to go interact and mingle with other cultures. This is a very Cree creator li ?
impulse is diversity, not survival mode, and hunker down and conserve, we're talking about ?
conservatism. This is conservatism. It's all in one place and build towers, yay, we feel good about that. ?
And then God coming down and saying, No, the first thing that was said was Be fruitful and multiply. ?
Not stay and be conserving, but multiplying. And so I read it as a story. Bat is calling up people that ?
would rather stick on safety and security is calling them to risk and diversity.?

Rohadi  32:54?
That is so good. We're gonna skip so many examples. And and thank you for sharing that one in the ?
books that they're, you offer narrative arcs a couple of times a few times of stories, and reimagining ?
what we know, or have commonly heard about those stories. Let's go to Jesus, and a story that after I ?
read it in your book, I've used it in a number of different sermons. So it's getting a lot of mileage here. ?
Jesus in the Syrophoenician woman, the woman who he calls a dog, or which is a mistranslation calls ?
her little dog, little doggie there's, there's a disconnect here. There's a lot a lot of things going on the ?
least of which Jesus seems to come across as super rude, demeaning, and I don't know if we can work ?
our way out of that. And there are also social location, questions and issues that are happening. So ?
there there are multiple intersections in this story. How are we to approach that??

Matte  34:09?
Yeah, well, I don't offer the definitive approach. I'm always saying mine is one way of looking at it and ?
add it to the all all the other ways, perhaps and see, see which one bears the best fruit I guess. But ?
good word. One of the things I don't assume and I have some Hebrew scholars to thank for this. I don't ?
assume that the characters in the Scripture always doing the right thing. Or that the just that the even ?
that the landowner in this going bit off topic, but the landowner in parables is not always God. ?
Sometimes it's a very mean unkind land, landowner. But anyway, so this assumption that I used to read ?
the story with the assumption that everything Jesus does is perfect and wonderful, and always serving ?
people in the best way. And you can't get around that Jesus being rude and insulting a Greek woman, a ?
foreigner. And I think, Well, Jesus was a cultural Jew. He would know about insiders and outsiders and ?
how you treat outsiders that would have been his formation. And I think Jesus had some unlearning to ?
do as well as some learning. And I think we are uncomfortable. Many times if we've had a high ?
Christology, talk to us, about Jesus actually being human, and having to learn how to walk and learn ?
how to eat without making a big mess, and have to learn to go to the toilet when it's time, and having to ?
learn all these things, how to learn skills, social skills, even. And then he had to learn that not all ?
foreigners are dogs. And I think this is an example of one of those places where Jesus learn something. ?
And that doesn't make him any less

Matte  35:54?
beloved of God, or perhaps even divine, it just makes him fully human. And what I love most about this ?
story is when you read it in I caustic structure, and if you don't know what that is by the book, but ?
basically, the the gym of the story happens right in the middle. And that is something that the Greek or ?
Syrophoenician woman says, she talks about inclusivity, where it's not just the Jews that are favored by ?
God and invited to experience the good news in the kingdom. It is the Gentiles that are invited into this ?
experience, and specifically her daughter to be healed. And in my mind, I see this idea of like Jesus, ?
you know, excluding her, she calls him on it. And then he goes out. Yeah, actually, you're right. And ?
why don't you just take the center stage here and speak what God would speak to people like you. And ?
he gives her the microphone. And she gets to declare the goodness of God, for Gentiles, not just the ?
Jews. ?

Rohadi  37:07?
And this is one of the first times that a miracle happens for the Gentiles. previewing the expansive table ?
of God's kingdom. Yes. And the woman in previews announces, is the prophet here. Yes. So we hold ?
that story in this tension, which challenges many views on Jesus. And as you were sharing the story, I ?
was thinking, Christian supremacy, you said, the high Christology so I said Christian supremacy. ?
Christian supremacy presupposes that even the humanity of Jesus's without air, yet he calls the woman ?
a dog. So that can't be Jesus also is upturning. He is subverting many different intersections, including ?
the exclusivity, like in other spaces, the exclusivity of God's feasts table of the kingdom of God. Now ?
he's undoing patriarchy through some of his actions, but in other actions, he is not. So how do we hold ?
that tension? Well, let's just use and stick with patriarchy. How do we hold those tensions of in this story ?
has interaction he literally calls this woman, a dog versus Jesus being a champion? For women??

Matte  38:32?
Yeah. And I'm trying to remember, we're exactly in the gospels, if it's later or early, I think it's earlier in ?
the gospel, that this story happens.?

Rohadi  38:47?
If I was Hank Hannegraf, I would have my Logos open and I would just tap it into my computer. Oh, no, ?
I said that other than that, bad memories to me listening to AM radio.?

Matte  38:58?
Okay, I'm leafing through my book to find it. So that Mark seven, so it's Mark seven, so it is earlier on in ?
the gospel. So I think it's the start of something. So I think that if we want to adhere to that belief that ?
Jesus is, as human is a learning Jesus, then this is the start of something and a broadening of his idea ?
of what the kingdom of heaven involves and who it involves. So I think the expansiveness as I traced ?
many of the story arcs. There's an ever expanding invitation in many of the story arcs and an inclusivity ?
and a wideness. That keeps multiplying. And so this, it's not conserving, it's multiplying, it's expanding. ?
It's ever broadening. When you see the full fruition of this in the story of Revelation where everything ?
has bigger than life, kind of done. mentions two things.?

Rohadi  40:02?
Oh, that's so good that even as we, and as good Christian, should we try to adopt the character of ?
Jesus, we can chart this pathway, this journey of Christ's growing crisis and growth through this gospel ?
stories, you don't think of it as static but or rather, we think of it as static as Jesus is just God all the ?
time always perfect. Yeah, I think it's so good.?

Matte  40:32?
Yeah. And even as I say it, I go, I don't know, should I be saying that? Yeah, I still have that. You know, ?
that little voice and conservative Mennonite girl going, that's not what we were taught. You're Joe ?
Jesus. And my answer always, to that little voice is Trinity. Like, just don't think of Jesus as the sole ?
carrier of the mission and message of God. It's always carried within the Trinity. So there's a dynamic, ?
relational, mutual nature of how God interacts with God's self and with creation. And for us to just put ?
everything on Jesus as an individual, I think reflects our tendency towards individuality in our culture. ?
Instead of saying Jesus is just part of a community, we're not just Jesus is part of a community. And ?
that in that means, he relies on other people.?

Rohadi  41:34?
Oh, that's so good, too, that Jesus is not on his own boat. Boy, we have struck to one more than two, ?
but just now to linchpins of Western culture, and that's individualization around Jesus being it doesn't ?
need community, you know, they're just off to the side or something. And the other piece I keep on ?
bringing in like white supremacy here, that's some type of bias

Matte  42:04?
I have. No, that's good,?

Rohadi  42:06?
right? That the note the notion of of perfection, that we have been shaped and formed this, this would ?
be a good dissertation for someone. Maybe it's already been written, but the notion of perfection that ?
Jesus has being perfect all the time, and I wonder its relationship. So throughout Christian history of ?
perfection, was that what the Church Fathers and desert mothers all thought about? Or in what ?
matters? Is that a formation out of white supremacy, as in white supremacy that creates standards of ?
perfection? And that's why it matters to us. Something connected there.?

Matte  42:46?
That's good. Okay, well

Rohadi  42:48?
let someone take that some listener will create it, build into it, or let us know where it already is. Let's ?
trail off now and end our time. Thank you, for the two stars are so many more in God is wide available, ?
wherever books are sold.?

Matte  43:07?
Let's actually go wide, we changed the title, oh,?

Rohadi  43:11?
not not God as wide go wide. I just read it off the PDF. And then I looked at the let's end with sticking ?
with Jesus, and that that growth in the more expansive imagination. How's belonging reimagined in ?
Jesus??

Matte  43:35?
one of the major themes that I try to convey is this a witness of God. And another word for that would ?
be solidarity, meaning, there is someone with us on the journey. There is someone that journeys to us, ?
we don't have to journey to God, who journeys to us, who is with us in transition periods, and in births ?
and in deaths. And in challenges. I think that's the whole point, kind of, of the incarnation is this idea of ?
not that we belong to the Divine community. Again, we're invited to participate in that belonging, but ?
that in some way, that divine community belongs to us just as much in the human experience because ?
there's a solidarity of coming with us on our journey. And I think everywhere, and belonging is really a ?
fabulous lens through which I read the stories not only of Jesus, but of the nation of Israel and their ?
interactions with other nations, and how that home belonging and belonging chosen unchosen The ?
dynamic really plays out, when the very first thing that is said in that in the Abrahamic covenant is your, ?
I am going to bless you, so that you can bless all the nations. And it's like Abraham, Abraham just ?
heard, I'm going to bless you and kind of forgot about the I'm just a conduit for everyone else. It's like, ?
it's like God gave me you know, 100 bucks and said, Go feed everyone. Not that $100 would get you ?
much these days. But he, they kind of forgot the nation of Israel keeps forgetting that what they are, ?
what have they have been given this gift they've been given is to share with everyone. And I think ?
Jesus comes along, as a reminder in many ways, and as always prying open that door of belonging. In ?
fact, he's saying I'm the door. So I'm always open, right? I don't I don't shut the door on people. I'm ?
always open. I think of that story of the, the banquet where Jesus is inviting people to come and they're ?
going or not. That's the story. I think of the story of the parable of the rich man who invited people to a ?
banquet, and they all had excuses. Nope, can't come can come sorry, busy got cows, wives, all kinds ?
of stuff happening in my life, as you do, and then having to saying, Well, this is a banquet, it's ?
happening up, throw open the doors to everyone just bring everyone in that you find on the street, I ?
really don't care who they are. Because it's a banquet. It's happening. It's for everyone. And if you don't ?
want to come, well, the door is open. But if you don't want to come that's on you,?

Matte  46:46?
I guess. So this idea of welcome and belonging that has been extended to us, how can we then be ?
stingy with that to others? Think that's the question. I asked myself and by Christian tradition, very ?
often, how can we be stingy? How can we be mean? How can we be exclusionary? How can we say no ?
to people? How can we feel superior or supreme in some way, when that's not what has been given to ?
us in the wickedness and solidarity of God??

Rohadi  47:25?
Then I think of the fruit of what those things produce, and the lack thereof, or the malformed or the ?
spoiled fruit of these traditions that are the narrow way or a narrow way and Far be it from from me or ?
from us too. start categorizing where traditions are and measuring them against each other. There's ?
something to say about an expansive imagination of belonging, where all can belong in all confined ?
deliberation and wholeness.?

Matte  48:01?
That's not every community

Rohadi  48:05?
is almost full circle. It's like oh, then and that's why we left the Vineyard. Oh, and that's why we are ?
losing so many friends and even family for from our past lives. Is that okay? Like, is there a word your,?
you may no longer have on the business card pastor, but what is the pastoral words for us as we leave ?
behind pieces of our experience, our history, your life? What's the best? What's the pastoral ?
benediction for us to trail off within??

Matte  48:47?
Because those are heavy things, right??

Rohadi  48:52?
Yeah. For those who are struggling, are for those who have left behind or for those who are wondering, ?
is it okay to leave behind a past life and past formation and our past religion and the people even ?
associated with that? Can you offer us a word of encouragement of expansive imagination for from your ?
book to trail us off??

Matte  49:22?
Sure.?

Matte  49:23?
And I'm just reading from the last chapter here, page 166. going wide, theologically starts with ?
broadening our understanding of how we engage with the scriptures. This broadening then has ?
implications for how we define God as singular or communal, and how big we draw the circle which ?
defines us. going wide allows us to abandon the need for certainty, becoming less interested in being ?
proven right, and more invested in mutual belonging and the well being of all creation. going wide ?
means becoming more alive to the height and the width and the depth of the boundless love of the ?
Divine community. going wide is participating in the divine dance


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		Transcribed by https://otter.ai