Rohadi 0:03 Welcome to the Faith in a Fresh Vibe podcast. I am your host Rohadi, coming at you from Treaty 7 territory in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. This is episode 69. Faith in the fresh Vibe is a podcast on decolonizing and deconstructing the Christian faith. I hope you've enjoyed all the different episodes here. Please don't hesitate to leave a review and share it. That's another word gets out and season 10. This is episode two of season 10 is the season inviting authors in their new books. Each one of these authors has a book that covers or falls within that topic of deconstruction or decolonizing. And they're worth picking up. Hate another feature of this podcast we have added transcripts slowly to all the episodes for accessibility. Speaking of books, if you can't afford every single book, I understand, you can request books from your library, your public library, and those get this count towards author sales totals, so they help too. So why not do that? Find the sub stacks or the newsletters of these authors and sign up because that's probably the best way for authors to connect with their readers. You can find my newsletter at row hatti.com. Just sign up on the homepage. You will also get a free ebook by signing up an e book from 2017 I think that I wrote a little short 60 pager on anti racism in the church, just some light reading before bed. This episode features Caroline Sumlin. I don't want to ruin any of the details, because our conversation not only speaks about her book, but criss crosses some topics including adoption, identity, belonging, and of course white supremacy that I don't think we've discussed in this manner on this podcast before, so stay tuned. Caroline Sumlin is on deck. Rohadi 2:23 Caroline Sumlin, We'll all be free. Oh tagline, How a culture of white supremacy devalues us and how we can reclaim our true worth? Whew, like thank god, there's a book to unpack the whole title. Like it's all there. It's all there. Caroline 2:43 Because that title could be a lot. Rohadi 2:47 White supremacy? I mean, obviously, there's a lot of folks who kind of check out because white supremacy is in the title. Yes. And then you catch all the folks who and there's a lot of folks who are seeking this type of material. But you know, what struck me as I was going through your book was the emergence This is generally speaking, I feel like there's an emergence of public theologians now. And they are bringing force and they're around generally, generationally, the same age wise, at least. And they're leading the forefront. You're one of them with his book, public theologians who are coming through with a word on freedom, liberation. We're having that within a holistic sphere, of faith, and life, and all the things in between. That's what I thought, Caroline 3:47 Wow. Well, I appreciate that. I've never really considered myself a theologian. Rohadi 3:52 The public square, you know what I mean, the slightest, but I Caroline 3:55 see I see where you're going with that. And I appreciate. I appreciate that. That's what's coming across for you, as you have read the book. That's, Rohadi 4:04 I feel like theology is changing in the sense and so use the public part because I feel like you think Ivory Tower, old white men, theologians, PhDs and so forth like that. These are just truth tellers. Maybe they're just prophets but truth tellers of of God's reality, on to a more deliberative world into language that people can grasp. Like how is that not bringing something closer to home bring truth of theology closer to home? Yeah, I don't know why brought up theology. It's not a theology podcast. Rohadi 4:45 I don't Lord put it on your spirit. Rohadi 4:48 Those roles that something like that every guest that comes on, I asked them to name the land. They're currently situated on So Caroline, where are you currently situated? Caroline 5:05 I am currently situated on the lands of the Algonquin. And I apologize if I am not saying these names correctly. But the Algonquin CEO assume I believe, and the Iroquois tribes. And if do you want the generalized area is and that's just actually a few of many tribes in the Washington DC metropolitan area. But that is where I am located. Rohadi 5:32 Washington, DC area. I've been to DC once. Wish as well as like a Canadian, I've been to the mall and to all that kind of stuff. And that's, yeah. Look, a connection. Another connection is our bucks. Yeah, because I feel that we talk about very similar things. But you, but they're different stories. But they're naming the same evils, but in different ways. And so I'm so excited to tease out some of the features of your book. But first off you you launch the book, and what I did was we spoke off air, I said, Oh my God, that's the hook. That's the hook. And you had me from the opening chapter. But you name your reality as a person who are your people of being displaced in some ways, through relationship and your displacement of family. Another question I ask guests is to talk about who are their people. And so your story, as with all folks is unique to you. So Caroline, if I say or ask, Who are your people? How do you draw that narrative? Caroline 6:58 Yeah, so as an adoptee that's a hard question to answer, because I will, you know, thankful for technology. These days, I did do an Ancestry DNA test. So I was able to find out that the majority of my ancestry does come from Nigeria, and Benin, and Togo. And then another little, the other largest lot, excuse me, largest sliver was actually Portugal, which I, you know, if you know, the narrative of enslavement here, somewhere, there it is, yeah, there it is. Right there, you know, some, somebody had some relation somewhere with their enslaved people. But that, you know, that that's, it's, it's nice to to see that. But do I have that the ability to answer that question in? Well, you know, my, my great, great, great, whatever grandparents were enslaved in XYZ state, and my family came from, whatever. Not necessarily because even though and well, I'll say two things, one is my my parents weren't have never been able to find out directly where their ancestors were enslaved from the most that they've ever known was just, oh, you know, my parents moved from the Carolinas, and they migrated to Ohio. And that's about as far back as my mom can go for my father. His his family originated in New Orleans and instead stayed there. Um, actually, he they never migrated anywhere. So I'm sure you could probably trace enslavement in Louisiana for him. But as an adoptee, it's, it's hard for me to feel like I can rightfully claim being a part of their, their lineage because I'm not biologically their child. So even though I am I'm grateful to be a black adoptee adopted by a black family. So I'm grateful to have grown up in my culture, I still feel almost like an imposter being like, Well, my people are people from, you know, the New Orleans or the people from, you know, wherever my mother's family originated from and be able to claim that same lineage. So I have my own personal story of displacement amongst a history of people. And their entire history is of displacement. So it's a very complex internal feeling that I that I wrestle with, and I don't have any answers for it. It's just monstrous there. But it's, it's a it's a hard question to answer. But I was, I will say relieved in a way to see the direct African connections of Nigeria and Benin and Togo, because those are three very prominent countries that enslaved people were are taken from. So I know it's there, I know that I do have enslaved ancestry. And so I know that I, I kind of confirmed my blackness. And in a way, it confirmed my identity as an African American woman. So at least I have that. But that's like, as far as I, as I'll ever be able to take it, you know? Rohadi 10:20 When it comes to that tension, and all of its different intersections, what went through my mind is the sense of claim. And is there a moment, and related to this are stories of an indigenous identity that a lot of folks claim, but if the community or the tribe or the nation, or the people do not claim you, then that relationship doesn't work? Right? And so, like I was musing around your tension of, does your father, your mother? Do the families claim you? And would that be the spark? Or enough to long enough enough is the right word, to then inherit those lines? And those stories, you know, or do you feel it's like, no, that will always sit in tension. Caroline 11:25 You know, I feel like if I was to ask my parents and my father is deceased now, but he was, he was that like, researcher of the genealogy he, he was a project man. So he had like, several different projects. And one of them was trying to find out and trace the genealogy. He wanted to make it his mission to find out where his family was enslaved, and he wasn't able to find that out before he passed away. But whenever he would share with me the information, he would share it with me in very much a you context, like your, I find, I found out that your or our like, he would use very inclusive language for me. And my mom goes back and forth. And I don't think she does that on purpose. I think that's just like, her nature. She goes back and forth by saying, My aunt's my grandparents, my this, my that. And then I'll kind of remind her, like, Well, where do I fit in with that? And she's like, oh, yeah, you know, she wasn't thinking like, she wasn't doing it on purpose. She's like, Well, yeah, your your your people do, you know, it's, I feel like in their eyes, they probably wouldn't understand why I feel tension, because they'd be like, what you're just one of us, like, you're just, like, we don't see you any different, but I feel different. And I'll always deal with him. In that way, I'll always know that I don't biologically, biologically belong to my, to my family, I don't look like any of them. You know, I, my mannerisms are different, like everything is like I can they can love me wholeheartedly. And I can love them wholeheartedly. And they raised me as their own and nothing will ever change that. But at the same time, there's nothing that's going to close that that gap that's there for me. So I think I think it's a it's a both and in that tension. It's both I think I get to celebrate and and and kind of claim their ancestry and their history. Because there's a part of me that is a part of that lineage by way of adoption. And I know within the black family, in the black community adoption doesn't always have to be a legal adoption, adoption, just very much a part of our of our culture, we just do it, we adopt each other and take care of each other because that's how we are communally. I know that there's definitely part of that there. But I think there's always going to be a part of me that's like, my, that's not my bloodline. I don't feel like I don't feel like I'm correct. And like fully just claiming, like, that's directly where I came from, because if I directly came from them, I'd look different. I would, I wouldn't be me, you know. But at the same time, if I found directly where I came from, within my biological families speaking, I wouldn't feel like I belong there either. Because I don't know them. And I don't have a connection there either. So I just feel like I'm kind of floating in the middle. Rohadi 14:03 Do you feel like you're fractured in between these? These two stories or even three stories? Or the way to look at it is it's your superpower in a way? You belong to two or three? Yeah. Four. And it offers this expansive quality of belonging. Caroline 14:26 Yeah, I see where you're going with that. And I think it's all of it to all of Rohadi 14:31 it. Do you think when it comes to belonging, then your approach to belonging, how you and your body belongs in spaces, is not only deeply influenced by your formation and fracturing, but it's also your story and what you've experienced, like you come out on the other end with a knowledge that most people do not have of what it means to belong in different ways, both to yourself and And in like communally yeah, like I feel you're an authority on this now. Caroline 15:08 Yeah, I mean, I think I think with all of us, we all have a story and that's in my book. That's why start off with you have your own story or stories that has shaped the way that you see the world and then we add on society and other factors that kind of prime that and mold it right. But chances are you have something that has happened to you or around you, that shapes you know, and that has fractured you in some way that then shapes how you perceive things, the lens in which you approach things. And so for me, yes, I would say that mine is is is the belonging is the is that the unique tension of existing as a person who knows darn good and well, like I was low key wasn't supposed to be here. Like I really wasn't like, if you look at the data, I wasn't, it wasn't planned for but of course a lot of people aren't planning for I get that but you don't I'm saying like I really wasn't planning for I was not supposed to considering my biological parents and their circumstances being intellectually disabled adults living in poverty as wards of the state in the Bronx, New York. Like I they were not supposed to get pregnant, there was an immediate you can't take care of this child, what What were you doing? Like situation all the way to the point where my biological mother was, didn't even know she was pregnant? Apparently, it's rumored but she didn't know she was pregnant until like, maybe her eighth or ninth months. Like that's really not supposed to be your kind of situation. So I think when it comes to that feeling, the worthiness piece, which is exactly what my book is about the understanding to a deep level of what it feels like to feel so unworthy, and to feel so displaced, and to feel such a sense of, of not belonging, I think yes, it was my with my circumstances, I, I do have a, I've had to go through it so deeply that now I'm able to, to understand it in a more complex way, but I think everyone has a superpower that relates to their, you know, circumstances. Rohadi 17:27 Yeah, you're right there, I think every everybody's story, they count. But some go deeper than others, for sure. And when we speak of depth, I'm interested in stories I'm interested in not merely stories, but the people I'm interested in the people who walk with a limp, or have been to the depths of what it means to be fractured, displaced and so forth, and have returned or, or have not returned, are returning, returning into a more whole place, a more free place, a more liberated place. You go through pieces and aspects of naming some of the foundational bedrock malformed ideas in our culture surrounding white supremacy on that, but you also tease out and I just can't wait. Like all the different books that this book is going to produce for you figures of the work like in the first third of your book, your naming, like some of them are really recent of like I was in this place here processing my identity and belonging and, and how I fit in the world. And I had to go through the work to actually come into a healthier or deeper, more holistic, embodied place. Yeah, that's another book or many books. takes note. Can't wait. Like I'm serious. I'm just I'm riffing off of this idea of superpowers which is which is pulled off of Chandra crane. I'm thinking of it through a lens of ethnicity okay, that like multi ethnic folks have superpowers that we white supremacy will fraction you often say your percentage of this this right. Whereas you can we should I should not fraction myself but I should look at myself as wholly Japanese, like I'm fully Japanese, Chinese. West Indian. I'm all those things. I'm not partially those things, right. And when I think of like, who we choose to be our family, we're not fractured. We are in many respects. But there's a tool of white supremacy that dictates our belonging and some of us just Just have the because our job has. But we have these experiences of how to belong out of tough spaces and places and moments and environments in our lives that make us experts. Caroline 20:20 Yeah, absolutely. I'm, I'm right, I'm definitely following what you're saying. And I'm right there with you. You know, I think something that I used to pray a lot was for God to reveal why I had to go through the things that I went through, because I never, never would have imagined that I would be in this place now. To to be in a much more healed and whole place. And of course, I say, and I say, in my book, it's always a work in progress. It's never like perfect, like I'm fully healed, and fully whole, you'll never be fully on this side of heaven, but a much more healed and whole place. I never imagined that I would be in this split place, I really, for the majority of my life, thought I would always be in this dark. Depressed, woe is me, the things that happened to me, I suck my life sucks kind of kind of place. But I would, I would pray and I would say there's, there's got to be a reason why you put me through these fires. And, and for me to, to pour in and to be even in these fires. And I would ask for him to reveal what that is. And even specifically, even specifically about my adoption, like I would be like, you really look at the story of my adoption. And it's so specific and unique. Whenever I tell it, people are like, whoa, like, because it's, it's not I mean, there's no typical adoption story. A lot of adoption stories are traumatic and have their own special pieces to them. But I don't think I've ever met anybody else that has that has any other adoptee that said their biological parents were also intellectually disabled, I know what happens, but it's just not the typical story line. You know, usually it's something else. And so whenever I explain it to people, I get that very similar. Like, whoa, like, That's deep. That's man, there's a book in there, like I get, I would get those reactions. And, and even before I even thought of writing a book, and I would always say, Okay, God, like, the way that this particular fire the things that I that I've been through, even with just this one circumstances, circumstance, forget all the other ones like, what, what, what was the reason for that? Because that was, that was a lot like why me I would, I would feel like I was almost like, I came into the world being punished. Like, that's how I used to feel like, like, you didn't want me here, like, you punish me because like, look at XYZ, right? That happened. And I never imagined that I would be on the other side of it, feeling so whole and so free. And so in such a space of healing. And now I'm so grateful for those for those fires and the refinement that happened there. And I do believe that it equipped me, or at least was part of my equipment to be able to write a book that speaks so uniquely to worse in a way that has not been talked about, because worse is talked about all the time. Right? self worth is a human problem. There's you cannot tell me there is one person on this planet who has never had an issue with self worth mate besides a baby. Okay? They're innocent little selves. But then, you know, and we know we're born in a sense, there's definitely that that aspect of it. But in this sinful world that we live in, we have a sinful society that has, you know, continue to push that narrative with intention. So we all struggle with this. But I used to think that this was a very, like, independent struggle, that if I struggle with self worth, I have to fix it myself. There's something wrong with me and in going through what I've been through, I think that's what equipped me to be able to see it in such a unique way that I truly do believe will be very freeing for a lot of people Rohadi 24:21 Thanks for sharing. I feel in my own story as you were sharing that I get those moments looking back at all the hard things right. And I'm not grateful...there's definitely because you don't want to like it's because it's not right. Right that we had to literally it's not right, we should not have had to go through nobody shameful might be the wrong word traumas. Might have been the wrong word, but I know what you're not I know what you're saying I was following all the way. For sure. I'm just like, it's it's that tension of a lot of people don't choose to do the hard work. And then they get stuck in whichever intersection of vicious cycle you can choose. But it's it's not right. And we live in a world where there are intersections that are producing not right, that are challenging our inherent self or that are out to marginalize intentionally certain body, yes. Let's pivot and roll into some of those bedrock pieces in our society. You spend, you weave throughout the whole book, really naming white supremacy, as the bedrock element that is producing all malformed problems, all of them. But you also drill down into the aspects of self worth. And beyond, I would like to name a couple of them and just have you expand on on a couple of them. In my book, I spent about two chapters like the same thing. There's a bedrock problem, it's white supremacy, let's name it, you have to name it. And then you need to find a name the things that are in your own life, drag them into the light and deal with them. So I sort of did the historical overview of what is produced white or how it came to be. I really valued how you made aspects of white supremacy very contemporary. Could you expand on the pieces, and you had an arc, you produce an arc of them, which is really helpful. The water on economics, and I think you're weaving a story pulling in redlining, Reagan economics. It's ironic that I didn't talk about economics, being an economist, by designation only. And when you went through all that, I was just like, this is fantastic. And I get it. Economics. And also, you we've probably one, two chapters around beauty, or aspects of white supremacy connected to beauty, or what is beautiful. Share with us those two pieces. Caroline 27:28 I think the biggest thing that I wanted to communicate in this book and help everyone understand is the current relevancy of white supremacy, specifically white supremacy culture, we have to white supremacy, white supremacy culture, obviously related to because white supremacy culture comes from white supremacy. But the first distinction, it's important understand, is that white supremacy itself is the systemic systems and structures, laws, regulations, rules, industries that have been created with whites, specifically to create, maintain, uphold white supremacy. And so examples of that are obviously the foundation of our nation being colonization, chattel slavery, the creation of racial hierarchy, that that sort of thing. And then what that racial hierarchy, what those, those structures and regulations came from the racial hierarchy, be it housing, education, et cetera, et cetera, right. So that's the systemic white supremacy, that most people online or most people in books, that's what they talk about. And they talk about the disenfranchisement of marginalized bodies, due to systemic white supremacy and it then it stops there. But we also have white supremacy, culture, the culture of our society that was birthed so to speak from systemic white supremacy, because the culture of your society is going to come from your systems, it's going to come from your from from whoever decides to create society, the way that it is that that's any one society, anyone's culture. It comes from that and that's that exactly the DNA. We don't talk about the cultural piece of white supremacy enough and how being that it is. It's our culture because we are a society of white supremacy. We can't say this is not our culture, because if our society was built on white supremacy, thus it created the white supremacy culture. If our society had been built on some other system, then it would be the culture of that system, but it wasn't it was built on white supremacy. Rohadi 29:52 It's the water Caroline 29:54 is the water it is the water. We are swimming in it. I wanted people to understand, the relevancy, just how much it's touching us, impacting us how much it's conditioning us in all these different ways, and a lot of times we separate out something like economics, we separate out. Beauty, culture, diet, culture, hustle culture. These are these are all segments of our culture that people have been before. I mean, before I came along and wrote this book, these are segments of culture that have been critiqued and have been talked about. There's complete, you know, there's books and content, and coaches, and the whole nine people out there trying to help people understand the toxicities behind these segments of our culture, but no one is talking about why they exist in the first place and where they came from. These are these are not independent, why, specifically, when it comes to economics, why were economic decisions made the way they were made? Do you realize that the economic decisions tracing all the way back to the foundation of in the in the the the creation of the United States of America, economic decisions were made to uphold white supremacy, to ensure the disenfranchisement of black bodies to ensure the marginalization did ensure the exploitation of the labor to ensure that white people in there were able to always be at the top of course, there's poor white folks, we know that that's not we're not saying that, but we are saying is that the wealth and the power was only going to be able to be touched by white. As far as economic economics is concerned, and policies concern that goes hand in hand, right. As a result, what culture has that created, and it's created, it's created many different things within within culture. It created a hustle culture, it's created, the culture that we have for the disdain we have for the poor. And the way we connect, immediately believe that black and brown is equivalent to being poor or less than there's, there's so many things with that. So it's looking at the fact that these when when we're taught economics in school, when we're when we're taught these things, we're not taught the truth behind why those decisions were made. Or we're taught, for example, that after the Great Depression, when FDR created the New Deal, we aren't taught that the New Deal was only the new deal for some Americans, and not all Americans. So that therefore, purposefully black and brown, and other communities of color that were that were here at that time, were purposely left out of that equation, so that they could make sure that that hierarchy maintained. We're not taught those Exactly. We're not taught those details. And we if we look at the timeline of every single economic decision and climate that we've been through, we can see how upholding white supremacy has always been at the forefront of those decisions. And then we can begin to look and see, okay, now what culture has that created? Why do we respond to things the way that we do? Why why do we? Why do we see certain things as a standard, for example, when it comes to the American dream, or it comes to what we've been told about how to succeed or whatever, what we what how we work is all that comes from these systemic decisions and the building of our of our, of our systemic culture specifically, yeah, and bring it all the way to present day. So we can see that even as things have changed. So the the thread has been the same. And as you mentioned with with Reaganomics in the 80s, that is, we're on the pretty much the heels of that today. And one of the it's been probably one of the most impactful, you know, economic, cultural creators of our of our time. And that's really what propelled hustle culture and things like that into place. But again, are we looking at why those economic decisions were made? Well, that was on the cusp of the civil rights era. And believing that post civil rights meant we're not going to give any handouts. So those black folks, they didn't got their wishes. Now, data is gonna have to fit we're gonna have to figure out a way to still keep them in their place, and keep them in line. So again, all these decisions that impact every single one of us, no matter what you identify as you make, it's going to impact you differently. If you're Black and Brown, if you're not like, if you're if you're if you're white, if you are, depending on your gender identity, depending on your religious identities, it's going to impact you differently. But it's going to impact you regardless. See, I'm saying there, that's my goal to help people be able to see just how interconnected and deeply woven everything is. And it's I could go on as the same thing with you know, beauty and diet, culture and education system, everything. There's there's a, there's a, you'll be able to see that common thread through all of it. And you'll have a lot of aha moments when you're reading the book. Rohadi 35:39 Can you name because a lot of folks are going to be Canadians, some of the the policies you'll name will be the same in Canada, just a different dude. But can you name some of the Reagan economics, economic policies that were put in place around finance around access to loans around what were the specific ones? The neoliberalism Caroline 36:03 specifically is what was created with the, with the Reaganomics era in the 80s. And so what that essentially is, is a free market economy. So it's changing the way from prior to from the new from the New Deal, which was FDR was right after the Great Depression in the 20s. All the way up until about the 80s. There was the economic Keynesian theory, am I getting it right or wrong? There's Friday and Keynesian. So it's Keynesian, which is a little bit more hands on by the government, it was a lot more like, Hey, okay, we realize that they, we need a, we need a safety net, we need more government involvement, we need more government regulation, government regulation, in private industry, to be able to ensure that things are going well, and people are, you know, a little bit a little bit more humanity, not not not a lot more, believe me, because even with the even with the more government hands on regulation, there was still a lot of that that was done in a racist manner where black people, brown people, elderly, domestic workers, however, they could code it, they could codify the language to basically ensure that they kept certain people out of certain situations, still weren't able to take advantage of those economic policies. But it was still a much more hands on government regulation, from the 20s to the 80s. And then, Rohadi 37:24 housing was one of the main Yeah, absolutely, um, which is the biggest expense for so many. But housing was one of the one of the main ones. And when you extrapolate that out to all the different ways that governments act today, in all levels of municipalities, state or province, and then federally, the way people can make a connection is to I think it'd be easy to think of conservatives, politically, the political parties look to cut Social Services, or public infrastructure. And in order to do, quote, less government, or to change hands and push those services or infrastructures into private hands, private enterprise, exactly. And who suffers the most will be poor folks. Yes. Caroline 38:16 We all suffer from it, the poor people suffer the most 100%. So right as black people specifically, were getting their their rights being able to be have access to public places, be it schools, community centers, things of that nature. That is when it was all of a sudden, oh, we need to sweet we need to privatize this, because we have to find a way to make sure they don't come they can't come here. Rohadi 38:42 Yeah, it just cost too much. And we need less government. So stops, stop the spending. But we can spend on the military until the cows come home. Caroline 38:52 There it is right there. Right. So and that they that's exactly what they do. Right? The language is, is going to convince you that it's not about race, it's just we realized that it costs too much, or, or whatever that may mean, so Rohadi 39:06 far down the line that I don't know how many people this is how it is, it's been diluted so much. But the concept is still there that no one knows its source. So they wouldn't know it as a racist policy. It would just be It's better. It's so ingrained, it's just better for the government not to spend, and that's a conservative policy position. Right? Even though you spend however much but on a bunch of other things like tax cuts or Corporate Socialism and so forth. So it's, I think today most people would not connect the dots which you which you have helped to remind us and connect the pieces to say, Oh, by the way, all of this emanates from intentional decision making and somewhere some somebody maybe the conspiracy theorists got it right. That someone is pulling the strings. It is by we should say design, yes in the manner that policies affect act with intention. People whether it affects them detrimentally, or benefits them. And so it's funny to see who is on which end of that scale. Caroline 40:15 Yeah, absolutely. I hope I answered. I answered your question. Well, by naming the specifically neoliberalism or free market economy, politics of the 80s that are still in place today. Rohadi 40:29 That's it. That was so good, because that one, you name it, and people go her like, generally, what when you say, Oh, the approach to government and what you normally hear in the taglines that Americans to political parties, we have more, but how you hear certain parties react to spending, and where dollars should go that is ingrained policymaking. One of the things I don't like to do, but it would have helped me sell more books, and we'll wrap with this is give answers to people. Not that you gave answers, but you named what the tenants of white supremacy look like. And then so the five that you put out there patriarchy ableism capitalism heterosexism and racism and they're all their own things, but when woven together they make this fantastic monster called white supremacy. You also then posited pathways by naming what dismantling will look like. So this is rapid fire. I'm going to give you what dismantling will look like the five that you included and you rapid fire us back the answers. Are you ready? Okay, rapid fire. What dismantling will look like you can just give us a preview because then listeners gotta buy the book. Sure that to that, number one. What dismantle will look like for white supremacy, there are five first one, patriarchy, antidotes. Caroline 42:14 The antidote to patriarchy is a leveling on equality between masculine and feminine characteristics and traits and people. There is not a hierarchy of power that's being abused and exploited. Of course, there are situations where you have to have somewhat of a power higher hierarchy. In certain situations. Like I'm not saying there should never be a leader. That's that's not true. But we're talking more so about the abuse of power, the using of the using of that power to exploit those that are beneath you. The antidote to that is not doing that doing the opposite you are right, bringing up your your your you don't have the mindset, even if you are the leader, you don't have the mindset that you are the one in control, you have the power but you're using your leadership to to build versus destroy. Hmm. Rohadi 43:13 Okay, the church got some work to do here. I think most of them just like came to a screeching halt. They're like, Oh, we owe less than suckers. Oh, it's this one? Yeah, patriarchy. Lets a lot of work. Okay. Number two, it gets easier. Ableism antidotes. That's a joke. It's not easier. Caroline 43:34 Yeah, one of the biggest things that I need people to understand about ableism is it's not it's not only it is primarily but it's not only about disabled bodies and having a a culture or an atmosphere where disabled bodies are marginalized or treated differently. That is the primary thing of course, we center our disabled family, and we ensure that they are never feeling as though their their disability is being exploited or it's being used against them. However, it's also about just in general, the fact that we all have disabled illness in us in some way, shape, or form. We can't be perfect when we get there. We cannot be perfect, but in our society, perfectionism is like, top culture, top characters in Weiser music culture, expected if you're not perfect, you are, you are a failure. It's either or right? You're either perfect or you're a failure. That's it. That's the binary thinking right there. So in the antidote to ableism is not this expectation of perfection because we understand that we all do not have perfect ability in any circumstance. We just don't. We all have differing abilities, and a culture that that honors that takes all of our different ability above Ladies and melds them together to work together not just essentially shaming someone for having a different differing ability or or what they would think to be a disability or not being perfect or not showing up in a specific way and only having a certain way to show up as that standard. And basically excluding anyone who can't show up in that way, and chances are, the standard that you are expected to show up as is, is not really humane in general, you have to really let go of a lot of your humanity in order to show up the way society expects you to and that in and of itself, it's ableism. Rohadi 45:38 Perfection is not beautiful anyway. So it's not it's not but it's sure is treated as such sure sells. Speaking of selling capitalism, antidotes? Caroline 45:53 Well, in an anti capitalist, industry or world or society, the biggest thing is that we are not using, we're not putting profit over people and we're not exploiting people for their labor Rohadi 46:05 exploitation, period, point blank. Caroline 46:09 In them, this doesn't mean that we're not supposed to work, okay. People like to think, Oh, we're not supposed to work, you guys. We need capitalism, blah, blah, blah, no, we'll talk to work working is working. It can is supposed to be a fulfilling thing that we're that we're called to do. As humans, no one wants to sit around idle. And we have to work in order to produce our, our livelihoods. That's that's a given. It's when we get to the exploitation of that labor. It's when you as a person and your humanity come second to the to the profiting, that the company or business or institution or whatever it is that you're working for. That that becomes first. That is the issue. Rohadi 46:52 Okay, we're getting easier now. heterosexism antidotes? That was a joke, it's not Caroline 46:59 in this is this one, this one that said you want in the church and guys, but Rohadi 47:04 yeah, you yelled already? You make it past one? Yeah, hold it for Caroline 47:10 it the antidote to heterosexism is that there is no gender inequality. There's no sexual orientation inequality? There is no big tree around those things. There is no there are no Oh, my brain just just went away. There are no gender specific roles and the expectation that one gender has more of a place or more power than the other gender or is more important, or that the characteristics kind of going back to patriarchy as well. The characteristics of have said, well, first of all, we understand that there's no specific gender characteristics there are masculine, there's feminine feminism, that feminine traits, yes, but it's not specific characteristics to a gender, and we get rid of that we understand that both men, women, non binary, trans, whatever, all carry masculine and feminine traits within them. We all do, there's that so it's the it's getting with this idea that in order to be a certain gender, you have to have these certain traits and characteristics and that's what makes you who you are culturally Rohadi 48:15 defined traits and characteristics for clarification. Last one, racism, antidotes. Caroline 48:26 You guys, I just because you because as a you know, as a, as a, as a black person, this is this is the one that is just so near and dear to me. And in the biggest, the most important, I mean, antidote to racism is the destruction of anti blackness, period point blank. And we need to understand that anti blackness is everywhere, it is the route. It is where white supremacy comes from. And every single thing that I've that I've talked about in every single industry and all that stuff, it really the root is white supremacy, but but but it's anti blackness, it's, it's anti blackness, because of whites of using white supremacy because of anti blackness, that has to be destroyed. It has to be eradicated. That's, that's, that's the antidote. That's it. Mm hmm. Unknown Speaker 49:22 We do that the whole thing gotta go. Caroline 49:24 And I will say that also the, the, in, when you destroy anti blackness, you ensure that whiteness is not the standard. And that is that is the other thread of my book, that in all arenas, we have been taught that whiteness is the standard, the standard of all of it, a standard of intelligence, of excellence, the standard of success, the standard of beauty, the standard of speaking, the standard of mannerisms, the standard of music, whatever, you name it, whiteness has been placed as the standard and that is what white supremacy culture is. So I cannot destroy my blackness without also destroying the idea of whiteness being Rohadi 50:05 standard period. Whiteness is like a lookout for white mediocrity can take us on the why that just crossed my mind? Because it makes me so what it is, it's what it is lovely. Oh. All right, fire, would you trail us out and say take us to the break. But no, take us to the outro. And leave us with a word on finding our freedom. Caroline 50:39 The biggest thing about finding your freedom is understanding that in order to do so you have to dig up the root, we have to stop attempting to, to heal and to find freedom by chopping off a branch of a deeply rooted tree. That is rotten boy. Hmm. You have to dig up the roots. And it's not like this beautiful just like pretty process where you can just go and it's kind of just look up the roots there. Look at Instagram, you can watch me do that. It is a truly worth it difficult, beautifully ugly process. Caroline 51:24 Beautiful ugly because beautiful is going to come from it just like the Lord makes Beauty from Ashes. And in this same sense, he will make beauty from these ashes in your journey to finding that freedom. But you have to be willing to do the work. And my book is is how what sorry, my book is designed to to give you a few tools to help you in that work. I don't claim that my book is the tool. There are there are going to be other books I need to read there's going to be therapy that you may need to get group sessions that you may need to do journaling, meditation you gotta Yeah, right. I mean, I can't I'm not gonna speak no absolutes are people's lives. But yes, you should. But you know, Rohadi 52:10 every grown ass adult needs fair, Caroline 52:12 yes, but also, unfortunately, not as accessible as it should be. So I can understand yes, and that ain't right. And understand why there can be you know, I don't want anyone to ever feel like well, I can't I don't have access to therapy. So therefore I am, yeah, you're not, it's just gonna take a little bit more time and effort on your part until you can have access to that therapy. But that's a good word. That's why in my book, there's journal prompts. That's why um, if you preorder my book, you will actually get a couple of awesome bonuses as well. So the bonuses are a all of my journal prompts that are at the end of every chapter are put together in one document for you with space to journal. So you don't have to flip back and forth or buy a journal or something like that. So I provide that for you. And it's a statically pleasing it's, it's cute. It's nice for whatever gender you identify as. And as there's also a book book club discussion questions that I am giving everyone who pre orders and will also help you really dig deeper into the material. Because I know that it's not something that people can just jump in, like have therapy tomorrow all the time, I wanted to make sure that people felt like they were getting as much out of the book as they possibly could. So I'm hoping to be at least like half of the tools in your tool belt with this book. And hopefully you will gain revelation as you're reading about what some other tools can be. But if you're willing to do the work and you're willing to surrender it to the Lord and and allow him to take those ashes and turn them into beauty as you're doing this deep work. Freedom. Freedom is yours. Rohadi Deep breath exhale Transcribed by https://otter.ai