Rohadi  0:00  
Episode 63, Season 9 a season on embodiment and mental health with special guest Aundi Kolber. Second episode in, Aundi Kobler, author licenced professional counsellor you might recognise Aundi from her books. Try Softer most recently hit 100,000 copies sold. That is a huge achievement. Congratulations on the by her most recent is a book called strong like water. Bull fantastic books, highly recommend them and I think you'll probably pick one up after listening to this conversation. AndI was also recently featured on an appearance on Good Morning America. How neat is that? So without further ado, Aundi and Rohadi, that's me. I'm on Treaty 7 territory. in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, you're listening to the Faith in the Fresh Vibe podcast. season nine, my mental health and embodiment will be find something here to set you on the path or affirm your path to healing and wholeness. Thank you for joining in, we're going to navigate through them miry clay, I don't even know if my reason word. I'll look it up later. I'll guess I ask them to introduce themselves, and to let us know where you are currently situated. So Aundi where are you right now? What lands are your feet touching?

Aundi Kobler  1:44  
Well, I'm currently near Lake Michigan, what kind of Western Michigan but I think, and I might be wrong on this because I'm doing this just off the top of my head. But I think it's like where the and I'm probably not getting this name, right. But how to water me tribes, I believe is this is their land. And so yeah, and sort of a recent move near Lake Michigan. But it's so fun to be in this area.

Rohadi  2:17  
We were talking off air about how vast the waters are? And how like, oddly, these lakes look like oceans. And the manner which they do you feel that the water kind of gives you life?

Aundi Kobler  2:32  
Huh, it it very much does water for me, you know, really. So like my whole life, I need time I've been around water, I experienced a noticeable shift in my body. And even the beginning of like strong like water I talk about like, like, but when I didn't really have what felt like any safety in my life, or very little, I used to go to the ocean. And part of that for me was you know, is that the waves themselves. And I didn't have words for this then but the waves themselves I think helped me to, like regulate a little bit more. There were some experiences of safety that I was that I was getting, it's sort of like that the the aliveness, right, like the almost like a heartbeat of something, which for me, and the work that I do is such a powerful, you know, sort of way that we talk about various types of connection and co-regulation. And so, for me water very much is a part of how I experience the world. And like it allows me to be more myself. When I'm near water.

Rohadi  3:51  
As you were describing that my mind just sort of shifted to this realisation that there's an embodied connection to lakes, oceans, like there's something tangible that is happening to you.

Aundi Kobler  4:09  
Yeah, one of the things that I love is the reality. I mean, you know, I think I'm trying to remember a therapist named Pete Walker, I think may have first made me aware of this, but that we can literally sort of what is called co regulate with nature, like in the sense that, you know, we are designed for connection, and sometimes for some folks, human connection has not been safe for them for lots of reasons, lots of valid reasons. And oftentimes, because the work that I do is often specialised in like complex trauma. We're looking for places where there can be actual safety. And nature is so often you know, including water why Meadows places where we can begin to build some real safety. And I think that is truly related to the co-regulation like the aliveness, like in the same way that we co regulate with people. Nature has those elements that allow us to be with that, and then allows us to be more present in our bodies. So it's a beautiful part of I mean, I think, what it both means to be human, that that's possible. And what a gift that it is even possible that we can do that.

Rohadi  5:39  
You briefly mentioned a little bit about your practice. So would you intro a little bit? And the big question I ask, is the why. Why do you do what you do? Why have you written two bucks or two plus one? What is the driving force that is, I assume, giving you life as you draw into some of the depths of despair and hurt and pain in others and yourself? But of others?

Aundi Kobler  6:11  
Great question. Yeah, so I am. So I'm a trauma therapist, and I'm also you know, an author, but I also identify as a survivor of trauma. And in my journey, I, you know, I've always been a person who is as much as I could wanted to see, like, how can I? How can I equip people? How can I resource folks, you know, I think that's part of why I got into the work of therapy of, of wanting to be a part of helping folks learn to heal. And an early on. I think I only barely knew what I even meant, when I when I thought of that concept, like wanting people to heal. Because I only had just a little glimmer of what that even meant. For my own self. Like, I It's not to say that I didn't, you know, and I think this is where my story, I think, for folks who are interested, you know, I write about this a little bit. But, um, it was almost like, I survived so much of my life by white knuckling, performing, tying myself into pretzels, dissociating leaving, like leaving myself in multiple ways. And it was hard, because, in many ways, the way that I responded to trauma was sort of crazed, for lack of a better word, like, yeah, and instead of like water, I talk about how, you know, it's like, I think people have different ways that they respond to trauma. And for me, mine really fit the bill for what other people assumed was like, wow, like, she's got it together. Like, he's doing good in school, and she's a good athlete. And, and there was truth to that. It's not that those things are all bad. It's just that a lot of the root of those things were about needing to survive. It was like when you are doing well in school, because it feels life or death is not where you want to live from. Right, like our body. Like, we can't sustain that. And so I guess I share that to say, Why do I do what I do? It's partly because you know, I've been a, I've been on my healing journey for I would say, I don't know, maybe 18 years, I've been a therapist for about 16. And in that journey, I, first of all, have come to experience in my own self, that there is a different way to be in the world. And that, for me, in and of itself was just like, ground breaking. Like, I thought that that's all that there was like the like this is as good as it gets, even when everybody else thinks that you everything is fine, but like internally, you're like in despair, right? Like, I kind of was like, Well, I guess this is it. And so, to have that embodied journey in my own self lit a fire in me because I wanted other people to know that how much they mattered, and that it was also possible for them to become more of who I believe that they were created to be. And that the journey of healing was not becoming less of who they are. But more like that we don't you know, so often in trauma work we think of it like there's, it's first of all, it's our survival brain that's acting when we are in a trauma response, which, in many ways, if you think about like, people are like an entire universe, like you look at someone and like have just trillions of cells in someone's body, like, just what's within each of us is, it's magnificent, right. And if you are only living from your survival brain, that's just a fraction of who you really are. And so there has been this, there's something in me, that has the deep desire to invite others to fully inhabit, who they are, and to know that there are ways to heal.

Rohadi  10:37  
In your first book, try softer, you have this line that I underlined, the sacred invitation to honour our pain is holy work. Whoa. When it comes to, as you are describing, becoming alert to more of yourself, of unlocking these pieces of your whole self? Where does acknowledging the pain come in that journey? Is that one of the first steps?

Aundi Kobler  11:22  
Yeah, that's a great question. I think of this, like, it's a it's a fine line to walk. And so I'll give a little context. I think that acknowledging the pain is essential. But one of the reason I say reasons I so often use language, like as you are able, or if it feels like a resource, is because for many people, that pain is either so immense, or has been so suppressed, that when we begin to acknowledge it, it can feel a little bit like a dam is about to break. And it can feel very scary. To acknowledge any of it like it's almost like, it's like, that's a defence mechanism is that we pretend there is no damn there. You know, we pretend like nothing's back there, it's fine. Just don't look at it. Yeah, totally. And a lot of people do that for a long time, partly because their body perceives, I don't have what it takes, I don't have what I need, I don't have the support. And so, so here's what I'll say that there's a little bit of nuance, because sometimes, like for some people, if a person comes into therapy, and that's where they are, it's a cue to me that they might need a little more safety. Before we can acknowledge the dam. However, some people come in, and the dam is already starting to break. And they can feel that the dam is starting to break. And they are like, their body's like, Oh, this is a this is happening. And so it's like, we are wanting to give safety, but also like, and the dam is currently breaking. So let's, let's acknowledge that there's a dam there. And then this is what I think people don't realise is that just because there's a dam back there doesn't mean that we can't go up there and get like a couple, like, we might just need to do like a couple of big tanks at a time. Or maybe all that we do is we just take a couple cups, you know, at a time to empty the dam. And we think when we are in our survival brain, those options don't feel available to us. Because our survival brain operates in binaries, it it operates in life or death. And so all that to say, you know, coming back to that original question, I do think acknowledging the pain is such an essential piece. And many people, it's like, it's like, like finding out their own pace. And then and then and then going with that pace. So some people are going to be a little more resourced and their pace might be a little bit quicker or their capacity is different. And that's okay. And some people have lesser capacity or lesser have not been as resource has not have not been as supportive, that healing is not available. It means we honour where anyone is out so that it doesn't cause harm. And in doing that, we ultimately move towards our goals more effectively. Because we're honouring those things.

Rohadi  14:56  
Mm hmm. as you were describing your own journey and connect it to what has compelled you into the work that you were doing, we, you mentioned a number of times about how what was happening on the outside was holy and holy as wh o Li. Acceptable it made sense. It fit the cultural narrative of how we present ourselves. Even if, if we're erect and broken behind. It doesn't matter, we have a cultural face that we put on. Part of the work of this podcast and the work that I do is to try to cultivate better ways forward. And which which is very much your your work. So let's talk about maybe let's not attack culture, but let's look closer to home in terms of community spaces. And for the context here that often church community spaces. So my sense is, many listeners are either in a church community or certainly grew up there. But now we're trying to figure out, Okay, what does that healthier, more life giving space slash community slash church even look like? So? Where can we even begin when it comes to cultivating more life giving church communities or just communities if we want to go there that have the both capacity, have the knowledge like I just don't want to make it in our head, we read some books around mental health and then the community somehow is postured into more life giving way. Rather, it strikes me as there's a whole unlearning relearning and embody to posture for community to adopt, that starts because we can't really arrive suddenly, that starts to explore and hold space for a better way around pain around harm. And around the journey unto wholeness.

Aundi Kobler  17:18  
Yeah, no, I think this is an important question. And I think it's just like anything we unlearn and learn, right, like we unlearn and then we potentially reimagine. So I think that it's appropriate in the sense that there has been a lot of types of things breaking down in our culture, things that once were seen as working. They're not working, you know, whether they ever worked or whether they stopped working, it's becoming more and more evident, that it's not serving the purpose. It's meant to, you know, and I think that, you know, whether we're talking about in church spaces, which I think is an important part of the conversation, or just connection and community in general. So here's what I'll say, I definitely don't feel like I have all the answers. But I do think that there are some important takeaways from the work that I'm doing. And one of them, for me, is tied very much to Well, first and foremost, is tied to safety. Now, safety is a big word. So I'm just going to define that a little bit. When I'm talking about safety, part of what I'm naming is our body's capacity to feel like it can stay, like somewhat settled and integrated, like there's enough, there's enough cues of connection. And there's enough cues that it's not that there's not things that aren't uncomfortable, it's not that there aren't things that could come up, it means that our body is picking up that there's enough goodness there that from like a more technical term, we're able to stay at least one foot in our window of tolerance. And so that means are we're not going into, you know, like our fight or flight or fawn response. We're not dissociating because there's just so many cues of threat. So, with that being said, obviously, everybody's a little bit has their own journey. They have maybe their own history around trauma, so we can't always prevent all of that, right. But there are things that we can do to like honour the people that come into spaces, like things like actively working to have like things like consent based language. You know, I think that's why I'm always using language like, if it feels like a resource, if you you know, if you are able to do this as you are able, and part of that is that I I'm inviting folks to check in with their own body invitation, see if that even feel Yeah, it's Invitational versus this is, this is what you have to do, you know, like, drill sergeant kind of mentality. And I think that's good for anyone. But if you are a trauma survivor, you know, I can't tell you how often folks with a history of trauma, when they are put in positions where they have no choice, even when the intention is very much trying to be helpful or whatever, just that posture of like, this is it, this is your only option, like you have to do this, for many trauma survivors can put them back into a place of like, I don't have any choices, I have to do what I'm told, I can't I can't listen to my body. So like, that's just an example that is, is in some ways, kind of basic, right? And it doesn't mean that we're all going to do this perfectly. And it doesn't mean I mean, I think it's more about creating, like a, like a cultural sense of that than it is always using the exact right language. But when we invest in teaching people like, like, I want you to listen to your body and your limits. If you can't say yes, then please say no, you are invited to say no and honour your limits, you know. And these are things that I find are they are seemingly small, but can be huge barriers to true connection, and feelings of belonging, because it's like, it's only the people who can live up to the pace that the group sets, right, which goes into things like ableism. And like, there's other elements to that. So So that's like one thing that I think is, I mean, not the only but there's different ways that we give cues of safety and even like the language we use, and the expectations that we place upon people using our language, I think matters a lot. And then the second thing I would say, and this one for me, is just so important. I mean, they all are, but I think a posture of humility, as much as we can. Right to say, like, I love I think it's David White, who talks about the poet David White talks about how humility is connected to the word is it hummus, which means ground. And for me, this is like, it makes so much sense, right? Like, when we talk about humility, part of what we're connecting to, is this sense of like, it's not that we can't honour that we're capable, or that we have a voice, or that we even have, you know, a choice or that we have things that are important to us. But But I think in a real practical sense, humility keeps us grounded, like literally connected to something that is very, of the Earth, right, like of, of that, which is like makes us and that which allows us to stay connected, there's something very truthful about this idea that we stay connected to the ground, like, we can look up to the sky, but the ground helps us know, sort of even our limits. And so I think, a posture of humility, and then particularly for leaders who might be in spaces, especially like faith spaces, but even if it's just a community space, that without humility. And I think from humility comes like an openness to get things like feedback, or to be willing to shift how things are happening, that then creates actual more actually more safety, right? Because when people know, if I say something, I'm not going to, like, be shamed and kicked out like, or you know what I mean, like, or I'm not going to be stonewalled, because I have an opinion or, again, it goes back to a sense of, of safety. And then I think, even though this is about a group thing, I think there's like a reciprocity between group and self. Those who are in a group don't lose their selves. Yeah. And, and part of that is also continuing our own individual work. It's like, we are not independent necessarily, and we're not dependent. We're looking to be inter dependent. And that requires us to have a self. Yeah. And I think, to have good healthy groups mean that we continue to stay connected to a sense of self, and that we do our own that we're on our own journey. meaning, you know, sometimes that might include therapy. But that doesn't have to, it means that we become familiar with our own internal landscape that we are, as we're able able to tune in, to our own stories, our own bodies, because again, it's that inside out outside in dynamic that we are created for, that allows, like, I think of that, like that's flourishing, right. Like, that's where people can bring themselves. Yeah, their home, I think, yeah, yeah. And like, I think of like, like, you know, Martin Luther King talking about like the beloved community, right like that. There's this sense of how much we all are loved. And even within the community, we are loved, like we don't lose who we are within.

Rohadi  26:04  
I just sensed as you were sharing these different markers of community of art must be how my brain works of the deficient points of our formation, and community and Christian community specifically, because when I look back into some of the key pieces of our formation around our the greatest commandment, our love for ourselves, our love for ourselves is governed, or influences our love for one another. It influences our capacity to love the enemy, influences our capacity to love God. And there are so many pieces that we are struggling with, especially within traditions that command, I could say that command, a denial of the self, over of the love, love thyself, like we don't know how to love ourselves. Like we're in a space where you mentioned this as you were talking about sense of safety of being alert to our bodies of how we're responding to what is around us, which is a skill. Because I can tell you as a grown ass man, I am not get like it is work for me to build. And it certainly wasn't formed unless it was rage and violence. Work for me to be attuned to what my body's saying. That is not something that has come culturally, it's not something that has come through, it's definitely not faith formation. And so so for me, and perhaps there is a gender thing here. But But still, I think it's formation as well. There's a total lack of embodiment, that is contributing to a space that probably is building unsafe spaces, or at least perpetuating the norm, which is typically unsafe spaces for all those who don't assimilate into the demands of whatever that it is, uh, give up a piece of yourself to belong. That's right.

Aundi Kobler  28:24  
Yeah. Yeah, I love so I want to say a couple things. First, I want to say I love that you bring up you know, love your neighbour as yourself. Because I think that this is such a concise, yeah. Elegant picture of honestly, it's like, from like a neurobiological perspective. And I talked about this in both tries after installing, like water, cuz to me, it's just like, like, it's amazing. How, like, This demonstrates both, you know, our interconnectedness, but also our individuality. It's both, right. And part of that is from like a neurobiological perspective, essentially, you know, it's like, assuming that there's a love of self, there's an assumption that if you're going to love yourself, that's how we want to love our neighbours. But the opposite of that is, is well, what happens if you don't love yourself? Yeah, essentially, it's like, however, we don't love ourselves will in many ways be potentially, how we treat our neighbours. Yeah. Right. So there's actually some weight to loving ourselves. And I think first of all, like we we miss that, like, we completely missed that. But it also shows us that, you know, it's, you know, to your embodiment point that, to love yourself. And to truly love yourself means that we are able to be embodied, to be connected and aware and achieve wound to the experience of our body. Because without that, there's no way to actually give love, like we're just sort of giving it lip service,

Rohadi  30:09  
right? Yes, yeah,

Aundi Kobler  30:11  
to be embodied assumes that we that we are connected to ourselves. And it's only in doing that, that we have the actual capacity to accurately attune to our neighbours, like there's a part of our brain called the insula. And it gives information from our body up to our prefrontal cortex. And it allows us to use our mirror neurons to observe people around us. And if we are a disembodied and not connected to ourselves, not just on like a theoretical level, but on a practical level, we cannot adequately attune to those around us either. So the weightiness of this is a real thing. And I think that it's not to shame us if we don't love ourselves, right? I really believe there's so much room for compassion, like, if you are a person listening, and you're like, well shoot, like, I'm not gonna be able to love anybody, because I can't love myself. And I think, I hope the takeaway here is to say, you know, and I write about this pretty extensively in both of my books is that our bodies like, like, when we have a posture of like, needing to be disembodied, there's usually a reason for that. And those reasons are worthy of compassion. Oftentimes, those are learned. Oftentimes, those are learned and community about why you can't love yourself or trust yourself. And I really believe that God's posture, to our pain is deeply kind. But I share these neurobiological takeaways, because I think for many Christians, these are stumbling, these can be stumbling blocks, to why like, well, I can't love myself, because if I do, I'm not going to love other people. And the reality is, is like, surely as we learn to love ourselves, and to be with ourselves, we deepen the love that we have for others. And that's on purpose.

Rohadi  32:33  
I loved how your your second point, from before around humility and being tied to the ground was another link into this groundedness to land. Because the opposite of that is a disembodied experience, which I think a lot of Christian formation Christian churches are centred around a disembodied experience, we just think of our salvation. That's how we can escape this world, our immaterial soul can escape this world into heaven into the clouds, which is not remotely our Orthodox. It is, in fact, contributing to a disembodied experience and understanding of our faith, which is flowing down the line. I don't know if that's the, you know, chicken or the egg, but it's flowing down, to impact our inability to love art and see our neighbours, but to love and see ourselves in our bodies, as Christ as God embodied and took on flesh, our answer, and our formation for it is found in embodiment. I wonder if the lack of safety or trouble with loving ourselves or trouble with loving our neighbours, that disembodied Christian experience or any community but Christian experience is contributing to a problem with attunement, you use that word before, but our inability to attune is in fact, linked to our inability to know and love ourselves.

Aundi Kobler  34:14  
Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think this one is, again, a very reciprocal relationship, like, you know, from like a bigger perspective. What I would say is that we learn to attune by being attuned to know if we've got generations or cultures that promote disembodied living that promote you know, just pick yourself up by your bootstraps and shove those emotions down and, oh, you ignored your emotions again, great job. And right, like all of these things, the ability to attune to ourselves is not something we are born with. It is something that we, we learn by being attuned to. And oftentimes, ideally, this is from our caregivers. And if we receive good enough parenting, we begin to form internal templates. And those internal templates help us to sort of have what I would call to things like a little bit of like an internal navigation system. It's sort of like you have a map in your body, and the map is accurate. And so the map helps you be like, Oh, I'm noticing that I'm thirsty. And then you notice that cue and then you go and get water. That's attunement, right? Like, that's the, that's, I mean, it's like a very small example. But like, feeling the sensation of thirst and responding to it is part of that process. Right. But let's say for lots of different reasons, your parents because they were impacted by culture, because of their theology, because of their own trauma, because of all three of those things. Yeah. Couldn't appropriately attune to you. Now, I want to say that doesn't mean that you weren't loved. Right, that these are different things. But again, on a very practical note, if that's something that you were not able to receive. And then because your internal navigation system says, Well, this is what I deserve, oftentimes, we'll go, and we will replicate the same kind of relationships, the the thing, whether that's in community, or romantically, or spiritually, we will replicate that. And we'll be like, there's something in us. That's right. The template one thinks like, this is this is what we do. But the beauty of this work, right, is that I mean, I do think that there is a, there's that groan in us, you know, like in Romans, Paul talks about, like, all of creation groans. And when I think about this through the lens of my work, I think about that as that thing inside of all of us. And in my own story, I certainly had it have had it to where you're like, man, is this?

Rohadi  37:22  
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You're like, that's, like, he's gotta be

Aundi Kobler  37:28  
Doing the same thing. You know, and I'm groaning, I'm aching. And I don't even yet have the words. I don't even I can't quite put my finger on what I'm looking for. But I think there's something more Yeah. And I think that right, there is the spark, where sometimes we begin to say, well, maybe I should try something else. And sometimes that's a place where we like, reach out for help, or we read a different book, or we call the friend that we were like, Oh, I remember them talking about that thing. And I want to learn about that, too. You know, um, and so, you know, in community work. I think it's like this, both and of us having these structural conversations, because community work to some extent, is, is a is more structural. So there's that layer. And then there's the other layer, which is us as individuals also continuing to be available to healing to like, like responding like a part of attunement is responding. And when we begin to recognise, oh, like, for example, I really don't feel safe here. One valid response is to find a place that you do feel safe. That is also attunement. Because every time our body speaks, and we listen, even if it's imperfectly, we are building internal trust. And what happens is, is our body gets even better at speaking. And we get even better at responding. And so, yes, finding places that honour that. Yeah, it's all part of this work.

Rohadi  39:26  
Yeah, yeah. life giving. Of a road towards wholeness. Let's bring it all home with another whoa, whoa. Quote, from strong like water. Were you right? Embodied repair is the answer. Compassionate resourcing is learning to have a posture of coming alongside and remaining responsive to the parts of ourselves and are stories that do not yet to feel safe, which is kind of what you were just alluding to embodied repair is the answer. Do you want to trail off our time with any final words around that sense of safety, of presence of regulation? And how it leads to liberation?

Aundi Kobler  40:24  
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think in many ways, you know, that sentence you just read is very much like the heart of my work is that I believe in this more than just a theoretical reality. Yeah. My desire. Yeah. Like my desire is that people at the pace that they are able, will have what they need, and if my book or books can be a part of that, that's amazing. But even if it's not, even if it's other places, like that's my desire, be, because I think we all deserve to move towards wholeness. And I think that that's God's desire and posture on us. And so I hope that folks who are listening would feel free to, to, to honour their particular journey, and to have their eyes open to the many, many ways that are available to us, um, to do this deep work of repair.