Rohadi 0:02 Faith in a Fresh Vibe podcast. Season Eight. This is the final episode number 61. I'm your host Rohadi coming at you from Treaty 7 territory in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. In this episode, part two, the final part with Karen Keen. Karen is the author of Scripture Ethics and the Possibilities of same sex relationships, which is the key book to read on that subject, in my opinion. In this episode, we pick up where we left off, we talked a little bit about the origins and inspiration and interpretation of Scripture. How are we supposed to do that? This is especially important for those who grew up in evangelical traditions, traditions with a high view of Scripture. What do you do with the Bible now? Especially if you have a complicated relationship with the Bible? What now? Do you give it all up? Or do you try to find new renewed reclaimed ways of approaching the Bible? Karen's latest book, The word of a humble God, the origins, inspiration and interpretation of Scripture, pick it up wherever books are sold, we won't address it directly. But it's contacts is the essence of this final show. Thanks again for being here. Don't forget to rate the show and tell all your friends. Let's jump in. I'm out. I want to switch gears in some ways, because we want to hang on to the Bible piece here. I would really like to tease out pathways for folks who have now a complex relationship, perhaps they always have, but moving away from a the talking head. So the authority figure, Pastor, preacher, maybe theologian is the authority on Scripture. And you just sort of soak in what they say. Or the Bible is being used as the sword to bring pain and hurt onto marginalised folks. Or the Bible is used as a way to preserve power for those in with power and not wielding it well. I want to come to that place of pathways of where we can start to figure out a confusing or hurtful relationship with with the Bible. But before that, your book, not the most recent book, but your book on Scripture and ethics, and the possibilities of of same sex marriage, I think same sex relationships. I had gone through and I wrote the story in my book about the biggest story at the start of 2020 wasn't supposed to be COVID-19. It was supposed to be about me and a bunch of ministers who left the vineyard of the vineyard churches of Canada in protest over their their final decision, which was to ban ministers from performing SAME GENDER marriages in the process to arrive because I was shaped and formed in what I would describe as white evangelicalism now, not in a Baptist tradition, but up here in an AGC and associate gospel churches and Alliance traditions, both of which are still non affirming, as, as our virtually all evangelicals, I read a lot about same gender, relationships, marriage, but I found that they cancelled each other out all the time. So so and so would write a book on being affirming, and so on. So a non affirming and they tended to just sort of meet somewhere in the middle in terms of how convincing they were to me. So I wanted something that was even more convincing in terms of its scrutiny, a different approach a different rather than battling head to head over the interpretations of words. And your book did that. And one of the aspects that I want to centre around and then call back to the Bible piece, is how we can approach scripture in the context of community. Because we have this New Testament Church as our example, that we're reinterpreting in many, in many ways, they're anti Jewish, but reinterpreting a Jewish faith into this new Christian thing. And that required the community to affirm things that would appear to be certainly against religious tradition, and sometimes a reinterpretation of Scripture. What does that look like? However, in a modern context for that large but let's keep it small, that small church community today what type of prayer practices can they adopt? What does it look like to meander through Scripture together in community rather than so flatter rather than that top down, we're always used to where the preacher or pastor sends the tablets and interpretation down, rather a communal approach of discovering how this liberative story that God has role creation can transpire within the context of local community. Karen Keen 5:29 Yeah, good question. I think that community, the whole concept of community, begin with seeing ourselves within the community, that it across history, especially when it comes to interpretation. So I think one of the problems with interpretation now is that we're trying to reinvent the wheel, we're trying to, we think that we are the smartest, and that it all comes down to us, rather than looking at ourselves, add a piece in the history that has come before us and the history that is going to come after us. And that we are intergenerationally connected to this community that goes that stretches back 1000s of years. And we are a part of the community that is to come. So my my interpretation is going to happen in that broader sense of community Joy, I look at the biblical authors and I, I learned from them, how are they interpreting their scripture? Because the Bible was written over hundreds of years. And so you have within scripture itself, interpretation of Scripture? And what how do they navigate ethics? How do they navigate hermeneutics? Innovation and tradition both? How do they handle that? And it's interesting how the biblical author will often, you know, when when when scripture was put together, they didn't throw out the old, they put it next to the new, so that you could kind of see the evolution of thought and development, it wasn't, I'm gonna throw out this tradition and invent something new that would have respect for tradition, that was this community that had come before me, I'm building on their shoulder, and what wisdom do they teach me, my, my ancestors, and I'm going to build on that, but my generation and for the generation to come. And so there was, you know, you see Exodus, next to Deuteronomy, and you have, you know, or three different slave laws that are put together, side by side, they didn't, they didn't just take that all out and erase what previous display came out, they kind of like a call Bart commentary to Roman where he had, you know, three pressures, he could have just, you know, erased the first preface. But there was something valuable, I think, and that, when he came back to Rome, and again, and again, he left those three pressure there, and you can kind of see a shift in his thinking, I, there's this idea that, that we can't change our mind, and that we can't learn anything we could if we learned something, if we shift our views or projection, then that means we were wrong before, and therefore we're stupid. And so in order for me to salvage my sense of self worth, I have to try to say that I would write all along, and I can't give any evidence of the fact that my views have changed, I can't acknowledge that my views could change, or that I could have a different perspective, where I think we see community in the stream of history, where we see generation after generation building on the previous generation, we see this valuing of tradition, while also the expectation that yes, we're going to continue to grow and to learn, and that that's a good thing. And not something to be rejected or be ashamed of or hidden but to be embraced. And so when it comes to the local congregation here, I think that would include looking at if we're talking about a particular issue or pattern. How do the biblical authors engage? How does Christian tradition engage, but there will be other pieces like general revelation and reason that will become part of that as well. I come from a tradition that was shalach scriptura, but really, it was more nuda Scriptura which is There's a distortion of the Reformation theology, it was the Bible only, you could only look at the Bible for any kind of insight. And that's it. And that's not the view of the the reformers, the reformer did value tradition, they just didn't see tradition at above scripture or equal they thought as part of, and they didn't denounce reason. So there's a distortion and how sola scriptura is taught in church today, I don't know where that distortion comes up in history, but a lot of us have been taught that we don't even know what the Reformers actually believed and taught, we've got this distorted understanding of Scripture, I'm kind of going off in a lot of different directions here. But I talk about interpreting scripture and community in my new book, The word of a humble God, the origins, inspiration and interpretation of Scripture. And part of that looks at how it's not really so much about interpretive methods, because any idiot interpretive method can be used for Antichrist purposes, and had been used for anti christ purposes. And the church has been sustained by a variety of different types of interpretation, if not, the method show much as the paradigm that guide jet, which is Christ as the, the lens through which to understand scripture, or at Augustine said, you know, any interpretation that you arrived at that did not result in Love of God or neighbour is not correct. And you need to go back and look and reinterpret, Rohadi 11:57 Can we end there is that as the simplicity of approach, because when I consider exactly as you said, if community can come together around, and it should a collective understanding and work to interpret a particular scripture in the modern day age, like right now, a contemporary community, that it could wind up in a space where they're abusing scripture like that, that is a that is the threat, but is, the simple answer to that is, like, many traditions do make the suggestion of Christ as the lens. Or they will even conflate or confuse the Word of God of Bible and Christ in many ways. But is it as simple as the love for one another and the love for your neighbour? And if you don't arrive at that, then you've interpreted it wrong? Karen Keen 13:00 I mean, that's what Augustine said. But I think that the Christ did the land does two important thing. One, it reduced protecting, it is a interdite. It is looking at the the thrust of Scripture as a whole. What is the whole story of salvation moving us toward on a bigger level rather than proof texting, when I look at problematic interpretive tradition that fueled apartheid or American slavery, there's a tendency towards protecting, missing the forest for the trees. Whereas I think the lens of Christ tells us to not miss the forest for the tree to see what the for the big picture takes us to. That way we don't, we're not as likely to fall into treating the cultural context of the Bible as inspired, the particularities of the cultural context that inspired it, we're looking for that bigger picture. And I also think Christ as lens is helpful. And the main pastor that I argued, is essential to interpretation, and that is humility, which may on the surface seem pretty simplistic, but I don't think that I don't think people I don't want to generalise I shouldn't say that I have experienced some in my tradition, and within myself. Before I had more of an understanding of God's humility, I did not really understand the extent of God's humility, because it would fathomable I come from you know, a tradition that's all about God power and sovereignty and and I believe that God is all powerful, but God is a humble God and If we don't really understand God's humility, though, we don't really know what that actually looks like. And so I prefer the you know, looking at how Jesus cooked breakfast for the soldier, excuse me that the disciple after the resurrection, he didn't attack the soldiers that killed him. cooking breakfast I the Lord of Lord King of King. Everything and Heaven and Earth are placed under HB and he he did cooking for other people. And I, you know, I would rate with while the women do the cooking and the men don't do that kind of tax, you know that? Rohadi 15:52 Well, he was he was BBQing I guess that's it. Karen Keen 15:56 Barbecue. Yeah, yeah. So humility, I think is and that what happened with misinterpretation of Scripture is it's usually centred on my own self preservation, at the expense of someone else is interpreting scripture for me in a way that's beneficial to me, and maybe not so beneficial to you. I cater or the interpretation to myself. And that's where scripture ended up being used in a way that abusive towards other groups. Because scripture becomes a way of propping up my own self preservation. Rohadi 16:42 Yeah, it strikes me as as I actually hadn't thought of it through that particular individualist lens. I have often thought of it more through a collective lens that these interpretations are one. In fact, maybe the theology has produced it, that if scripture is in there, and and God is unchanging, we couldn't possibly change our minds or, or alter interpretations and so forth, or else the House of Cards falls apart. So to circle back, are you saying then, as we connect, interpretation, to the rich theological and interpretive history, throughout church history, not merely the early church, but throughout church history, that that can help us produce understanding for contemporary issues? Karen Keen 17:48 I think one of the primary things that it teaches us is that it's not the method as much as the disposition in which we go into interpretation of Scripture, I think the fixation, the fixation is always around, let's get the right and interpretive method. And history teachers just did that. Not the right question. It's the disposition. So you can do an allegorical interpretation, a literal interpretation, a dialectical and no, whatever. There's all kinds of methods that could be used for good or ill. It's how I'm approaching scripture and for what purpose? Out Second Timothy says that Scripture teaches me about salvation through Christ, and that it is inspired, useful for teaching for what purpose? To equip us for every good work. Learning about salvation through Christ is kind of the milk. Baby Christian, they learned from scripture that God salvation they learned about Christ, but the meat, it really putting that into practice, which is being equipped for every good work and show how does Scripture propel me and inspire me to act with a good am I reading scripture from for some other reason? Am I Am I reading scripture, show that I can win an argument show that I can prop up some demand that I want for myself? So you know, so that I can maintain apartheid so that I can maintain my desire to own slaves? What does that have to do with every doing every good work? Rohadi 19:51 But good work in a contemporary? So there's certainly folks now that wish they could own slaves. But what When we look at what the reader or that particular community might be thinking of what is good, it could be aspects of power preservation, which is a fancy way to say it could be about how to keep illegal immigrants out of a particular stance on immigration. It could be a particular stance on who to vote for, and those strike an insular community as good. So then, what's the filter? You can say? Jesus again, I playing devil's advocate, of course, but it but that might produce the pictures of white Republican voting Jesus. Right. Right. Karen Keen 20:44 Exactly. Yeah. And that's kind of one of the problems with the historical Jesus movement is that you can start trying to study the historical Jesus, and you'll just come away with whatever Jesus, that researcher inclinations are towards, you know, we can definitely create Judas in our own image. And we have, and, you know, Judas, Judge, you look for me on scripture, but you don't see me why? Why don't you see me? And he's dead, because you do not have the love of God. And you know. And so, what he's saying there is that, in order to even be able to see what's in Scripture, you have to have the love of God in you. And obviously, that's a bit of a subjective thing. I don't think that's something that we can go around and say, Oh, you have the love of God, and you don't and you don't, I do and good. goodness and love are not defined, however we want to define them. I do think that that is demonstrated in Scripture. I think it's demonstrated in Christian tradition. I think it demonstrated today and certain communities that the Holy Spirit is evident in the myth of the good that is happening. Scripture will always be misinterpreted, Scripture will always be used for oppression purpose, sure, by somebody, I don't think the goal is to say that we're going to always be able to eliminate that. But we can certainly counter it with a method of reading scripture, that is demonstrative of the love of God being asked and is demonstrative of loving our neighbour, it's pretty hard to make a case for the good that about my self preservation only when love is defined as how I treat my neighbour. Rohadi 22:53 Yeah, yeah. I think I'm going to hang on to your word around, it's not the method or it's not the hermeneutic we use the word method, it's not the method but the disposition, we approach the text, and to pull this full circle, that strikes me as well, it's so good, we got put, put that on a t shirt. That's, that's a good one. It strikes me as decentering, that intellectualization of Scripture and asking, how the body, how your body, individually, but also the body of Christ, how the community as as body approach the grand narrative of God's unfolding hope for creation. Karen Keen 23:46 I think disposition and, and that disposition lead to it connected to purpose. So it's the difference between the love of God coming up and welling up out of me and being demonstrated outward as character, transformation, disposition, character transformation, versus a here's an external pressure, or a rule that is being placed upon me to try to motivate me to act in a particular way. I think that's how we often approach Scripture as here's this rule, I need to follow in order to be right with God because otherwise God will be angry and and I'm really scared of God, as opposed to the love of God in me that love that is so amazing and so expansive, overflowed out of me, to everyone and everything around me. Rohadi 24:57 So good Karen, thank you for gracing us with your time was certainly a blessing to me to hear your voice for the first time to meet you for the first time and then to kind of go back and forth around these ideas of, of renewing a sense of appreciation for scripture, or at least offering places for folks to tether themselves to again. So I really feel that that's this conversation will be something that folks will, they're gonna pull a nugget from it. Karen Keen 25:39 I hope so. And I'll say this, I'll let you Esau McCauley, a New Testament scholar have the last word and he said that the Bible interpretation can be an exercise and hope, which I think is an encouragement for people who are just illusion which scripture and if they want to hear more of Dr. McCauley, speak on that check out reading while black. Yeah. Biblical interpretation as an exercise in hope. Rohadi 26:09 That concludes season eight on the Faith and the fresh Vibe podcast. Thanks for being here. Don't forget to rate the show. If you want a little preview of season nine, what's in store, it'll be mental health, embodied healing, all of that. Can't wait. Until then.