Rohadi  0:02  
Faith in a Fresh Vibe podcast. I'm your host Rohadi, coming at you from Treaty 7 territory in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. In this episode number 60, a two parter with Karen keen. We wrap season eight with these two episodes. Thank you for being here. Don't forget to rate and admire this podcast. Yes, still on the admiring podcasts train. I'm very pleased, excited, whatever you want to say. To invite our guest Karen Keen to the show, the reason being Karen has been formative. She didn't know it. But formative for my own journey around understanding how to interpret Scripture. Her book, scripture, ethics, and the possibility of same sex relationships, I think is the key book to read on the topic of same sex relationships. Most of the books, in my experience are the ones I've read, and both positions affirming and traditional. They cancel each other out. But Karen offers a renewed approach. And not only that, I think her book and also this podcast this episode in two parts, will help you reimagine how to approach Scripture today, especially if you come out of traditions that have a high view of Scripture. So many evangelical traditions have a high view of Scripture, it's very important, but you've realised that the way it's interpreted and handled doesn't make sense in your renewed deconstructed or decolonized faith in that interpretation seems to follow within particular biases. Karen comes in and offers a method and approach to reclaim scripture in a new light, but also one that gives life so I hope you enjoy. Remember, this is two parts. Part one, we will learn in me to Karen and talk about church traditions in the West evangelicalism specifically. And then part two, we will dive further into how not to read the Bible. So enjoy. And don't forget, support this podcast where you can leave a review. Let's jump in. And by the way, the first half of the first episode, the audio is a little messed up, but I fix it.

For our listeners, would you let us know where you are currently situated? And also, how you would describe your vocation right now?

Karen Keen  3:12  
Yeah, I'm in terms of being situated. I'm currently in ministry, I have the Redwoods Centre for spiritual care and education. And you had asked about my educational background and sort of what happened there because I was in a doctoral programme and left that programme. So it all kind of dark back when I originally went to seminary at Western seminary. And I love to study scripture, and really just went as kind of my expensive hobby. It wasn't something I even thought of when I was younger, because that wasn't something that women could do in a tradition that I came from. But when I went to seminary originally, it was out of a passion for the Bible, and and a thirst to know more about God and a thirst to be equipped for ministry. And I didn't have any agenda. When I went, I didn't, I didn't think oh, I'm gonna go to seminary so that I can become a pastor, I'm gonna go to seminary to do this. I really just went out of my own hunger. And I absolutely loved it, and thought this is this is what I'm made to do. And so I immediately when I finished that, that I have to go on and I really felt a draw to get a PhD and biblical study. And I thought, well, I want to do a little more preparation. Because I was formed in an evangelical background and I love that my Baptist heritage gave me a love of Scripture, and a and it was much about that tradition I love but I all I also noticed that there were a gap between what my tradition taught me and the world of biblical scholarship, I could sense that there was something missing. And so I decided to go get a th m at Duke Divinity School in order to better prepare for a doctoral programme, and then I subsequently got accepted to Marquette University. And all this time, I really didn't have a good I didn't have a set agenda of I knew that I was called to serve God, since I was little I wanted to, to give my life to God in some way. And so I knew that I wanted a life of service. But I didn't know what the outcome of my training would be. Why we're not going to be called to a tenure track. Position as a Bible school, we're just going to be for some other type of ministers. And that remain an open question to me. Well into my Ph. D. programme, well, I still wasn't sure. But about halfway through my programme, I really started wrestling more intentionally with that question and becoming increasingly disenchanted with the academic world. Not really disenchanted in terms of learning, but in terms of not really sensing that I was called to teach within the institution, I really feeling a calling to bring scholarship to those outside the institution, my passion is making scholarship accessible. And I knew that if I were to tenure track faculty, that the expectation would be that everything that I write, pretty much would need to be for other scholars. And I, I really wanted to write not just for other scholars, but for a broader range of people. Because there's so much good within that research, and that scholarship that never makes its way out is not translated for people. So my, my love is taking all of this complex scholarship and synthesising it and making it concise and readable for people because most people are never going to go to seminary or to Bible college. That's the audience I particularly want to reach and not be left out. I don't want those. I don't want the broader audience to be left out of the conversation. So all that to say, I left my Ph. D programme, which was not something you're supposed to do, and what I had to really wrestle with not making a decision based on just trying to earn people's approval, but to really do what I felt my heart was calling me to do. So I was in my fifth year, fifth year of my Ph. D. programme and the middle of writing my dissertation. When I left to pursue ministry,

Rohadi  8:21  
How would you describe your your current ministry and what you're doing?

Karen Keen  8:28  
So now, through the Redwoods Centre, it's it's education and spiritual care. So the education piece did making scholarship accessible and I do that through teaching classes and through writing, and through peeking. For example, I have a 10 week course on the Bible, church, and same sex relationship to help people process that that challenging topic, as well as a class on the origins of the Bible. I have other classes I'll be teaching like, Introduction to the Old Testament, I've spiritual care, things that I like to offer show retreat or care groups. So some of the care groups I've offered have been a faith questions group for people who are trying to sort out their faith, particularly maybe if they've been disenchanted with church, or hurt by church, where do they go now with their faith? I have taken people through the Ignatian spiritual exercises. I have a video retreat that I just completed and it's about to go up on the Ignatian examen. It's a retreat that a colleague and I Mark Shaw did through Duke Clergy Health Initiative for a project that they were doing and show now we're making it more publicly available. And that's called Finding God and examine prayer retreat.

Rohadi  10:06  
You mentioned earlier that you didn't want to be confined in your writing confined within the academy, as it were, and how not everyone goes to Bible college or to seminary to learn about some of the, the deeper aspects or nuances of Scripture and theology. But as you said that I was thinking, I know a lot of people, and there are probably a lot of traditions where you could go and do those things go to Bible college, you go to seminary, and yet you still come out with, I wouldn't say a biblical illiteracy, but you, in fact, are shaped and formed in an entrenchment, within a particular paradigms that ultimately work against liberation and wholeness. Now, using those two words, of course, that kind of situates me, for a lot of listeners, at least along the theological spectrum, with a passion around teaching the Bible, let's just kind of distil it down. Where would you begin with folks, because listeners I think, are even those who are approach a retreat centre, to find answers around the questions they have around scripture or their faith. There's a generation of folks who have been, as you alluded to hurt by the church, and have developed an intense mistrust of the institution that they wouldn't even go to the retreat centre or think of it even. Where do you even start to situate yourself back towards a different and potentially more life giving relationship with Scripture and theology?

Karen Keen  12:15  
Really great question. And that's a question that I've had to answer for myself. And I'm a little bit biassed because of my own experience. But I am a big fan of Ignatian spirituality. And the reason for that is because when I was going through Duke Divinity School, I was faced with a lot of research that challenged where I came from. And that was part of the reason why I went there, because I knew I was missing something. I knew I wasn't getting the whole scoop. And I went there on purpose, and I was challenged. And most people who come from an evangelical background that then go to a school to be challenged in that way, are wrestling with their faith because they realise, oh, wow, there's this whole other talk of research. Yeah. Yeah, a whole other world of research out here that has something truthful to say, and how do I navigate that and make sense of that? So I went through a period where the deeper I went in to biblical and theological study, the more I realised how vast the galaxy was, and how intimidating that bath galaxy was, and that I didn't actually have all the answers. The answer didn't fit in this one little box that there was, there was so much more. And so how do I keep my faith because I came from a proper positionally based tradition, where my faith was very heavily based on what position I held on a particular theological belief. Yeah, and if I was, if I was in a place of like, wall, ah, I don't know, I'm studying all the different things. I'm not quite sure where I'm going to land with this or that. Then what what are my fate? What is my fate? Where's the foundation, and I was going through my spiritual wrestling training programme shortly after Duke Divinity School. And it happened to be through the faithful companions of Jesus, which are the congregation of Catholic Sisters in the Ignatian tradition. So that's where I waited exposed to Ignatian spirituality and for those who may not be familiar with that, that just refers to a tradition that grows out of Ignatius of Loyola who lived in the 16th century, a pastor who had a lot of insightful spiritual things to offer us in regard to being a follower of Christ. And one of those have watched integration of the heart and mind that we not just do wrote religion, that our emotions matter, because God created us with emotions and desires. And it's not all cerebral. It's not everything as cerebral it there's an integration between the mind and the heart. And that we want to look for God and daily life. And it was sort of an obvious thing. But I had to be reminded of that. It's not just about propositions. It's, oh, God is alive and active and communicating, and how can I start to look for the movements of the Holy Spirit and daily life. And that is much more of an experiential approach to Christianity. And that saved my faith, I would say that that saved my faith, when I couldn't, when I couldn't, maybe short out all the, the theology on everything, I could rely on the fact that God is here, and God is present. And I can pray and respond to the movement of God in everyday life. And that can be as simple as looking for where do I see the fruit of the Spirit? Where am I seeing love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. You know, first, John 412 says, no one has ever seen God. If we love one another, God's love is perfected in us. And that's a very experiential way of, of knowing God. And in fact, the I did a study on this one time, I looked at the word for No, in the Old Testament, with God is a direct object. So what does it mean when we really talk about the knowledge of God, not just propositions about God, but it's interesting to see how the knowledge of God and Scripture and the Old Testament and into the New Testament has an experiential, active quality to it, that the one who knows me knows that I am a God, who got in merciful, you know, compassionate. And not were you she also in First John, the one who knows God, love. So knowledge of God is connected to action connected to a way of life. The one who knows God loves, like God loves. So I guess that's a long way of saying that. That's a good place. I think the start for people who have been hurt by the church is it's not about getting all of this theology. down right now, it's, it's just about experiencing God and looking for the fruit of the Spirit. If I don't know for sure, everything about God, I do. I do know that love is real.

Rohadi  18:26  
I can imagine that there are many people who aren't even wrestling with theological inquiry anymore, that they have pushed all of that aside. And they haven't even and in fact, perhaps they have found exercises or practices that are completely outside of their old formation, that perhaps not or not even Christian, whatever that might mean. I appreciated how you spoke of your experience encountering the vastness of theological tradition? I'm sure it would include belief systems. But do you find and would it be? What are your thoughts on this when we speak of simply formation today in a contemporary sense of how we could do Christian formation, that it would serve us a lot better? If we approached our formation at the get go with a sense of vastness?

Karen Keen  19:40  
Yeah, I think that I think what that does, is that it a way of instilling humility, and I think that humility is crucial to spiritual formation. So I was trained in such a way as I not only need all the answers or I need to provide all the answers my faith which hinging on everything being certain, and everything fitting in this box, and that, of course did not instil in me, the ability to listen well, if somebody from a different faith tradition wanted to share their thoughts, because I was the one that had the answers, and I needed to tell you what those answers are in order to save your soul. So I think the bath galaxy, the ascension, which are the vastness, they are really build a humility of that a great complexity to the world and to theology and to faith and I, and I don't have all the answers, and maybe it would serve me well to listen to what someone else's experience and insights are, and I don't need to be threatened. I've been thinking about Christian formation a lot. And I'd love to hear some of your own thoughts. You know, 2016 was really hard for a lot of Americans. For me personally, it was very challenging, because I did not understand how the people I came from, could vote for someone that seems so contrary to what I understood to be Christianity, and how was it that I was in the minority of that, and it really made me think about what Christian formation is, because I come from third tradition that goes to church, the mouse that read the Bible the most, that is so jealous. And there's so much about that tradition I love and that I carry with me and did for me and has formed me. But there's also was something missing. And I thought a lot about that, what is what is, and part of it? This is not the whole answer, just one thing that I believe is part of it. And that is there's so much information defending in that tradition, and not as much reflection, as there need to be about what is love on a very practical, tangible, concrete level. So when I were doing some of my, when I was doing spiritual formation groups at Duke Divinity School, I started taking students through real basic stuff like, what is it an emotional bid? And what exactly do we mean when we say love? And what does that actually look like practically on an everyday level? Interpersonal Communication? How do I resolve conflict? How do I listen? Well, and what does it mean to express vulnerability? All of that stuff? That's not talked about? And that's necessary? Before more armed?

Rohadi  23:02  
Yes. That's so good. Those are, that's not in the 12 week discipleship class. None of those things you just listed

Karen Keen  23:12  
often No, no. And I don't know how that got clipped, I think that we felt like and the tradition I come from that information, if I just have the right information, that I will be form show by just read pages and pages and pages of the Bible. I will somehow be formed by that. And I do think Scripture can transform us. But there's a lot more than just reading. It's how I approach it. My interpretive method, what I what I'm doing with that information

Rohadi  23:55  
Extricating, of separating of dissociating our bodies from our minds, and we cease to be able to pay attention to our bodies and what it might be telling us and how it is part of our formation. And instead just sought to fill the mind with with a bunch of stuff. And then you add in. And I think this is a big piece of formation that when you come out of traditions that are formed to believe themselves as gatekeepers of truth that takes on a certain posture. And even if it's deep down inside, that DNA produces a space where if you don't have the answers, you wind up in a a conflict or a crisis of faith, no answers. Then you leave it all behind. Rather than, and this is I think the juxtaposition of having on one end, and I don't want to make it too linear, but having an expansive vision of how big God can be expressed through all the different traditions and cultures of our world, that humility that you alluded to, that's it's an all opposition to type of faith that gate keeps and is centred around holding on their particular truth, which produces a very different type of faith. And you have to double down 2016, you have to double down on preserving whatever aspects you need to have to help you get keep, which is power, versus, you know, power versus humility, like, I just don't mix water and oil. I'll just finish with this thought around the humility piece in that if you're formed in traditions that are about that gatekeeping, about always having the answers. If you're formed there, you don't have a space to fall back on, other than to leave it all behind. Which is sad, because I always advocate for the possibilities that before you go, could it not be possible, and this is predominantly to those who have grown up in more white Jiro centred traditions? But isn't it not possible that God is somewhere in all the other traditions in the world and that your tradition was not described as the whole truth of everything? You know, is it not possible that God is somewhere beyond your experience and is kind of triumphalist for someone to and if you gotta go, you gotta go in terms of leaving your faith, but move away from that notion that your experience was the only possibility of the expansive loving nature of who God is.

Karen Keen  27:02  
You know, I've wrestled with that question, too. And I think about Cornelia, who is called a man of God, before he ever knows the name Christ. I think that there were the movement in which God sent a prophet to share with him who Christ is. But it was intriguing to me to contemplate here as somebody who is called a seeker of God who had worshipping God was my tradition in which I you have to say this prayer. Before you can know God, you're a complete sinner and a complete heathen completely out here. If you haven't set a certain kind of prayer where I'd I think, there is more of a mystery there. I started to feel that when I read Gandhi, autobiography, and I started to see, wow, this man who may he may be imperfect, but as we all are, but he, he clearly watch God he clearly seeking after God, he clearly trying to be devout and to live his life in accordance with God's goodness, that really struck me His life, His life, His autobiography of heart, for God really impressed me. I think there's definitely more of a complexity there in terms of faith. I don't have the answers on that. I, I do believe that Judas did Lord of lords and King of King, but I don't see that as something that is something that is meant to exclude people. I think it's something that is much more expansion than we often think.

Rohadi  28:57  
That ends part one of two. There will be a second part on how not to read the Bible as we go deeper around scripture with Karen keen. Thanks for being here. Don't forget, read and admire