Rohadi 0:02 You know that sound? That's the sound of Season 8, Faithin the Fresh Vibe podcast. I'm your host Rohadi, welcome. Come along for the ride. Another season. It's taken a while six months. But once again, I have sought out voices on the margins of Christianity. I don't know if all of them would claim all the guests would claim Christianity anymore. This is a podcast that invites you along the journey, multiple pathways to figure out what it means to live out the Christian faith in the modern world. We are deconstructing we are decolonizing by capturing some new ideas from voices Hopefully you haven't heard and some you have in the season, we will include a couple of thematic episodes as well. So watch out for those. This episode features Kamil Hernandez, do poet, public educator, abolitionist mum, wife and author of a forthcoming book called The Hero and the whore. Yes, a book on the Bible's victims of sexual exploitation. I can't wait to get my hands on a copy. Without further ado, let's not wait. Let's jump in and meet Camille. The first question that I ask all guests is to share the lands on which you are situated right now. Camille 2:00 I am in the unceded territory of the Gabrielino tribe, which is also known as Orange County, but they got really no people reach out from what is now Orange County and Los Angeles. They also go with the name of the Tonga tribe, but apparently Gabrielino is the preferred title of the tribe. Rohadi 2:22 Traditional lands, we also I think it'd be really cool to name, who are your people? Camille 2:33 So I come from two very different sets of people. Yeah, my father is Black. And my people on my father's side as early as, as much as we know, they come from enslavement in the rural south, specifically the Mississippi Delta. So right now there's the Jackson water crisis happening in Mississippi, and very close to my, I guess I got my ancestral home because it's where it's my grandma's house. She passed away my godmother lives there now. But yeah, we are the descendants of the enslaved. And I haven't really looked further into that. Yeah, that's as much as I know. But we're also in Mississippi Delta people, which is a very different type of southern very different type of type of country, and it's very country person. He wanted minute videos. But yeah, he was raised. My dad's old, he's like almost 80. And he has vivid memories of being a child and picking cotton as the job that he Wow. Well, he was born during the the Jim Crow era. He fled Mississippi because he was organising anti segregation. marches in his area, and he successfully desegregated a movie theatre and a library. And there Rohadi 4:16 has to be like the late 50s. Camille 4:19 Yeah, early 70s, late 50s. So from my grandma got word that the whites were after him and he led as part of the great migration to Detroit. So a lot of that history lives in us and lives in me. Yeah. And my mom. She is Filipina. So we are from an Indigenous tribe from in the Philippines. She says way back. My great grandfather, my grandfather and from beyond where sugar cane and coconut farmers we are family still has that ancestral home that ranch of sugar cane and coconut farms. Oh wow. Yeah. That my mom she also had to flee because she fled the Philippines in the late 70s During martial law Ferdinand Marcos Rohadi 5:32 Yep, they didn't his like nephew just come back into power? Camille 5:37 Yeah. Bongbong Marcos. Just like his dad. So yeah, we I'm, I am here because of I'm here in California, I should say, because of people who had to flee violence fruitarianism but I'm also here for because of people who made a way in lands that are new to them. Rohadi 6:06 Yes, I know that story. I know that story. That's like so many of our stories for black and brown folks of displacement or there's even sugarcane in my story. Like it sounds like so much of all this violence and incurred onto bodies by powers and power systems have displaced us from our traditional lens. Yeah, like and displaced for myself displaced at least on my dad's side displaced from India from the British Empire displaced from Trinidad my dad and I left to come to Canada we become settlers on to land and Oh man. Oh the levels Hey, Camille 6:50 yah hoo. Rohadi 6:53 Thanks for sharing about your people. And then your your last name now. Because you also have the people you you bring in close and not the ones you have to have. Which probably like totally messes up like folks around you in your life in terms of intersections, like there's no Latin connection, like in your own body, but you would do you do you incur some of those stereotypes? Oh, of having such a weird intersection. I shouldn't say weird but like Camille 7:31 yeah, having a Spanish last name. I think Filipino culture is so intertwined with Spanish culture is because of colonisation. But people have not assume that I am any proline American. They they usually I mean, I get mistaken for being like from Pacifica or Oceanica. Which I'm like, Yeah, that's close and Filipino and black. Rohadi 7:59 It's a big ocean though. Camille 8:01 The largest ocean. So I'm like, I have I guess I have a grace for when people try to figure out my ethnicities. Rohadi 8:10 Don't try though. That should be the point. Camille 8:13 I I shut it down very nicely. No, kind of I don't know Rohadi 8:17 you got so much grace. Camille 8:21 I think it's my kids are always around me and me right now. They're not with me, because they're in school. My kids are usually around me. And my kids. They have certain facial features that can tie back to their African ancestry. But they are usually people usually ask if we're Filipino because my kids are like, they have less melanin than I do. Your hair texture. It varies, but their hair texture isn't. Like it's not the same as mine. So it, we often get mistaken. Or just like assumed to be Filipino? Because I look Filipino and they look Filipino? Depending sometimes people can pick up that they're also Mexican. Yeah, Rohadi 9:15 Don't guess. Camille 9:17 Yeah. The hard part is that I'm like tired of people assuming, right? And Rohadi 9:23 That's why I ran out of grace. Like, don't ask that. Yeah, no better. Camille 9:28 And have you received the awkward compliment after you tell somebody and I don't know if you tell people your ethnicities, like my son's former swim teacher was like you have a really pleasant face. And I was like, We are not returning. Rohadi 9:43 So I don't think people will comment on male beauty in the same manner. So I haven't received that one. But yeah, I get a lot of dumbass or Eve or have like, I haven't in a while like but in the 80s and 90s that that that was is wild. Like it's like everything. Camille 10:03 Exotic. Yeah. There was someone who oriental Yes. Who when someone has oriental I'm like, Rohadi 10:09 my mom got that recently, actually, really? And she's Chinese, Japanese, right? So she's Asian. But yeah, old white man. And it's like, Dude, I share a story in my book. Because like, a lot of folks give old folks, old white folks a pass. You're like, ah, they don't know better. They're just trying to oh, there's like, they've never seen foreigners before. It was just like, No, that's racist. Yeah. They'd been racist. Camille 10:37 Yeah, I'm begging to pass, but I don't excuse me. Rohadi 10:40 Thanks for sharing about your people. Let's talk just briefly, we don't want to, like, eat up all the time. But you have because we got to get to your book, and also where that book is going to take us. But before we do, you're writing a book. I don't have the full title from heroes to horrors is that no, Camille 11:02 that's not the title. The hero and the horror, the hero, Rohadi 11:07 and oh, yeah, that doesn't make any sense. I'm gonna have to edit that out. Maybe I'll keep it. Just so we know. victims of sexual exploitation as as a mechanism unto healing and liberation, like their stories as pointing unto and all the other pieces. That is the book, we're gonna get there. But before we do, let's talk about briefly. Have you grew up in the church but also moved around different traditions? Like what what did that look like in terms of faith formation for you? Camille 11:44 Yeah, it's like a mosaic. So My early childhood was being raised amongst Filipino Catholics, which is very different. Yeah. Rohadi 11:53 Yeah. Yeah. And very typical, though, for Filipino folks. Camille 11:56 Yeah. And Filipina Catholicism is like, low key anamastic. And I like that. Rohadi 12:04 Low key and what? Camille 12:05 like, like, like in, in Filipino culture, a ghost is not the same as a Western ghost. Like a ghost is an animal visiting you. So for example, like my friend who's Filipina. Every time she sees a scarab beetle, she sees it. She says it's her grandma visiting her or her ancestors. There's like lots of lizards at my place. And I have like, very deep affection for lizards. It's a new thing that's happened. Yeah. And with it, yeah, I roll with it. But like I, I would say like, oh, yeah, lizards are like my ancestors visiting me. The part of how Filipinos have taken Catholicism in different ways, but still kept our like, kept our original Indigenous beliefs alive in some ways. And then in my high school end of high school years, I was in a white evangelical youth group left to go to college in Northern California, which is when I was in a more conservative black Baptist Church. And then I returned back home and returned back to that white evangelical Church, and was there for about a decade and I, I left a couple years ago. And now I am, I think this is really funny. I am a reluctant preacher, sometimes I preach a lot of times I say no, at a church for second generation Asian and Latinx immigrants. Rohadi 13:49 So you would say that your communities that are drawing you and aspects that are appealing, especially if it's an immigrant community, is that it's more poised on to work of justice, for care for the community, especially around you know, matters of immigration, like that kind of activity? Camille 14:12 Yeah. The church started in a community centre, that was in a historically brown neighbourhood. And the, it's, it didn't start from that organisation, but it started like adjacent to the organisation. So at the heart of the community, is that like, second gen, like, what is the Christian experience second generation, folks, immigrants, which my husband and I both identify, so it's interesting, but I'm not like I'm not like a churchy person. I'm not someone who's like this is my church community. I hate the term church family. I I yeah, I am still in my process of healing from a lot of wounds in that. So I much would rather identify as facilitator who like occasionally preaches. Rohadi 15:16 So where does it come into play where you have developed this voice and expertise to produce even the idea, the notion behind your book, the hero and the core, what the Bible's victims of sexual exploitation can teach us about healing and liberation. Camille 15:45 My own complex PTSD. Yeah, it's a great launching point. Now. I mean, a part of that is true, but from the years of 2016 to 2021. Last year, my husband and I, our whole family served as like local missionaries from an evangelical organisation and the musician was really big on trauma informed care, lots of trainings with people who had learned from McVie experts in trauma informed care and how to have how to have trauma informed relationships, creating common from space and environment. So that was just like five years of intensively, living in it. And having this knowledge, but also realising that, like, my knowledge is incomplete. So continuing to study and like learn more about just the different facets of how trauma is realised, and how it moves through us in our bodies and our relationships. And I wanted to write specifically on sexual violence because Christians like suck in general, but there's no Praxis or ethos surrounding sexual violence instead. Instead, in Christianity, instead of talking about or acknowledging or even trying to figure out what is sexual violence, there's that like, Band Aid or righteousness that people put over it of like, oh, just forgive the person or like, oh, just do this. God wanted this to happen so that you can help other people walk through it right instead of having so sort of having like an empathetic or compassionate centre, to say like to tell someone Hey, this was violent, and you were violated, and this wasn't allowed. But also we push forgiveness too much. Like I totally I get the theology I get that like, that's Christians like forgiveness is like our thing, right? It's like your Super Bowl, and we want to call it hockey hockey cup. Like I dunno.... Rohadi 18:12 so a hockey cup is actually yeah, the hockey cup is what you use to protect your groin. Camille 18:18 Oh, that too! hahaha Rohadi 18:25 It's the Stanley Cup. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. I have jokes about hockey cups but anyway, that's another podcast that's good. Camille 18:42 But yeah, like I'm somewhat embarrassed but also very entertained. Rohadi 18:47 That's not embarrassing at all. That's hilarious. Camille 18:52 As Christians we just don't have a like a practice of safety. Rohadi 18:57 Yeah, there's there's nothing around sense of formation around sexuality. healthy sexuality. Yeah. Nothing Camille 19:06 and with no with no formation around healthy sexuality there there is no formation of what is violent. Rohadi 19:14 Especially coming out of violent traditions. Yeah, who Camille 19:17 100% So it's, yeah, that's it's a book that seeks to educate without having an air of like, of arrogance. It just, it's, it's my own way of saying like, these are the theologies that I've learned as I've healed from my own PTSD, and this is what I found to be super problematic. And I don't like the word grooming because I feel like it's just become a buzzword. But this is how these environments allow violence to happen. And I personally, I do love Jesus and all my life I've been in pursuit of Jesus, but I'm okay if the church burns down. Yeah, yeah. And so this is to say, unless you want unless the church wants to change, then the church is just going to continue being the nurturer of these violent spaces. Every every sexual ethic that the church has that Christianity has regarding sexuality is violent. So, Rohadi 20:42 is the church in fact, that is bringing the harm? It is the source of that. Camille 20:47 Yeah. And it feels like total shit like it just feels awful to know. Like, I'm so dedicated to Jesus. And yet, like, yeah, I also recognise that like, as a community organiser as a facilitator, this thing that I'm dedicated to has caused said no, then generations worth of it is the problem. It is. Yeah, I love Jesus and Jesus loving Jesus is also the problem at the same time. Rohadi 21:10 Hmm, oh, that's different. That's, that's different now and also a great t shirt. That's deep. That's another book. That's your second book. Camille 21:21 Let me finish. I keep on as a way of procrastinating from my current book, I'm like, let me just write down all the other books. Hello, right. Rohadi 21:31 I want to know why the Bible is victims of sexual exploitation, that within their stories, there is a pathway unto healing and liberation for us. Camille 21:46 I think depending on your identity, you can look at the story of the stories in the Bible. And see, see yourself, but we've been taught to not see ourselves. And we've been taught to look at scripture, like a rich white man who has taken all of his wealth from generational violence done unto our own people. And so I, I am learning, continuing learning to look at scripture from my own lens. And asking myself, Is this even worth it? Like, is this following these stories worth it? Because they're not like, they're not easy. I don't believe that the Bible is a set of Victorious fairy tales. I think the Bible is the set of cautionary tales that tell us how we should not be and who we should become. Rohadi 22:57 That's good. Thanks. Camille 22:58 But like, so let's use an example. Yeah, so let's talk about Hagar. Right and, and Hagar was enslaved to Abraham. And Sarah, Sarah was Hagar's trafficker who sexually exploited Hagar to have a child. So she had used her her enslaved woman to sleep with her husband in order to have a baby, but what we don't think about was that Abraham had traffic Sarah, also to the Pharaoh. And there's this dynamic, this double dynamic that we're looking at of Sarah. She, there's a time when she calls out Abraham after he a trafficker. But she doesn't change. She does the same thing that he does for her own. And as someone who studied trauma and violence, and then community organising, I know that in the world of pimps and human traffickers, we call it the bottom bitch. The bottom, which is the person who doesn't have to do anything. I'm sorry, the bottom pitches, the person who does everything I should say, who does everything for the pimps. So the pimp doesn't have to do anything himself. He can run his business, and she'll keep it managed. And that's the story of Hagar. Hagar is enslaved by this violent woman who was Abraham's bottom bitch. So what does our faith look like? In light of that? Hagar runs away not just once, but twice. The first time she runs away she meets with God, she's the first woman to and she's the first person to give God a name. God who sees me, but God tells her to return so doesn't mean to us that God tells this victim to return to her traffickers. Rohadi 25:05 Hmm. Camille 25:07 And then Rohadi 25:09 wait, wait, what does it Camille 25:11 What does that mean? I can't tell you because I gotta buy the book. Okay, like, what do you got me? Yeah, what does that mean to us? And then the second time Hagar runs away. She, like, she's, she has her child. So the first time she runs away, I believe she's pregnant. I can't it's been so long since I wrote the chapter. But the second time she runs away, she has she has her child, her child's significantly older. So what does it mean to flee with children and that's a that's another big thing is my like, I'm a mom. I'm a mom of three kids under seven years old. So I can't not write their stories and not talk about like, what does it mean to be to experience sexual violence and then also carry the next generation? How does that work? Because Hagar is like Eve as a mother, Hagar is a mother. Rahab is a mother. Gomer is her mother Bathsheba is a mother like motherhood is also a part of stories of sexual violence. So we have to also look at what how does their actions impact their children? And then how, how do their children carry their trauma? Later on? Rohadi 26:35 Yeah, deep exhale. No, like, we gotta we can't just, but we will jump right into the next thing. Like I got to pause and linger and breathe. So much of what you have just shared, is a vast majority of listeners have never heard before. And I chalked that up to the vast majority of listeners and for us who have been shaped and formed in Christianity in the West haven't heard from black and brown voices and black and brown women coming with interpretation, with hermeneutic. With and with stories, through their lens from the Bible, which I believe is an exercise in decolonizing scripture unto unto as you list healing and liberation, like ultimate healing and liberation and wholeness. When you write and as you've been writing, is that part of your thought process, like just me showing up? Like is an exercise which it is, by the way, in decolonising, this broke ass, white supremacists are Christian supremacist perspective of Christianity and faith. Camille 28:10 I think yes, that's true. The just me showing up. But it's also having the bravery to let go what I've learned and that that's almost physically painful for me. Like I I have a I like, I have a writing calendar. So I spent three weeks on each chapter took me five and a half weeks to write the best Shiva chapter. Because that one it was like, literally so physically painful to write her story because I'm talking about rape. And these other stories, like rape is like, it's just so commonly written through this, but that she was chapter like, I cried multiple times ate healthy chocolate, like, because it was so physically painful. So to even show up to my laptop was hard. Yeah, and there would be days when I would just like look like I just like look at my laptop and be like, I can't do it. Like I don't know, and I would I a big part of that was I have a colleague who is a domestic violence survivor. Community organisers, so she organises these communities of people who are in or have survived domestic violence relationships, and she has taught me that the truth teller carries the hardest burden. Because when you tell the truth, you're inviting violence into yourself from those who either don't believe or those who are very, very loyal to the system of violence. No Oh, there is there is truth in showing up. Yeah. But there's also the reality that like it's physically painful. Yeah, speak out against these things. And I think about I mean, I'm just now coming back for myself because I finished reading the Bathsheba chapter last week. But yeah, it's it's like, people don't talk about how showing up is actually painful. We don't do this because it's Yeah, it is, you know, Rohadi 30:36 you're getting paid Wow. Like, no I'm paying to write and it hurts. Yeah. I mean, I don't get it in the same way that you've just shared like it has paused my breath a few times as you're sharing of the depth of cost that it takes to be that to be the profit on the forefront. Camille 31:02 Yeah, I like I don't like I don't want someone to call me a prophet or prophetic. Rohadi 31:08 Well, I speak and the Prophet is one of the gifts, which is what you're describing. Yeah. And you're a prophet in terms of you are truth telling God's reality into the present into the contemporary, that's a prophet like, like, what else? What else? But I don't I don't incur the same not remotely as a man, the same wrath or cost that you do? Camille 31:32 Have you heard of the term gender mapping? Rohadi 31:35 I have. Camille 31:37 Gender mapping is what? Non cisgender males it's like a internalised system that non cisgender males have, where we're scoping, not the path of efficiency, but the path of least violence. And where we're going. So an example is my husband and I were going to the bowling alley, and I was driving. And I chose a really specific parking lot. And he was like a spot parking spot. And he was like, Well, why don't you park there? Because it's easier to get to the door there. And I had to explain like, No, there's no light there. And I have to park where there is light. So I have more capacity to see my surroundings and know where I'm going. And my husband didn't know that. He was like, go. And we talked about it from time to time. It's like an ongoing conversation and ongoing thing that he's learning. But I use this example because yeah, of course, he wouldn't know what you would you wouldn't understand, like the somatic of writing this in this process that I'm having. And that doesn't make you lesser it just means that we have different lenses right? I'm I'm literally going into one of the most violent religions and saying and tell that one of those violent religion, so incredibly ignorant about itself, and telling it that these are all the ways that it has done harm and justified harm. Yeah. And I still believe in redemption. But the problem is that what we both know of Christianity is that the minute you speak out against one thing, they won't listen to the rest. They'll just hold on to that one thing. And then there's the character assassination, there's the threats, there's the violence, and all this. So yeah, I write from I'm, it's like, I'm riding past my fear. But the fear is still in my body and that's a part of what physical orthodontists. Rohadi 33:36 Yeah. That's a to show up as a triumph every time. Yeah. And try and fun to the possibilities of liberation, not merely for yourself, but for all those who are going to pick it up like you unlock so much. So much potential of Liberation's through through this law. I'll add costly work. Yeah. Oh, I'm so inspired right now. But also shake my head as as we contemplate the cost that is incurred on to onto your body. Like, do you think it's worth it? Camille 34:16 Do I think I'll find out, Rohadi 34:18 huh? Yeah, we don't know yet. Camille 34:23 But I had to do this not and I'm like God called me and I had to do this. But yeah. I feel like this is this was the last way that I could love this religion was to go into truth tell. Yeah, to tell the truth and to go into these stories, and really wrestle with them, like, what does it mean? What does it mean to still be so incredibly in love with the personhood of Christ? And look at all of these places of destruction, and see and and say I hate that this happened. And yet there's still a part of me that wants to cling to you. And also question like, am I gaslighting myself? Yeah. Is this religion? Or is Rohadi 35:13 Maybe I'm the baddie here. Camille 35:18 Am I the bad guy? You know? And so it's just it's, yeah, it's it's the last way that I could love Christianity. Rohadi 35:27 Hmm. A love letter to Christianity you dare poke a bear. I was the power. Camille 35:36 I was talking to a friend about this when I was early on in my writing stage, and she said, she was asking, like, How's writing going? And I was telling her like, I'm scared. I'm scared of how I'm writing this. I'm scared of how it's going to be received. And she said, Yeah, but this is your love letter to Jesus. And, of course, people are not going to receive it well, but you write this, you write this as your love letter. And see what happens. Rohadi 36:13 Like you're writing to those who will receive it like, and that is. That's about it. Right? Like, yeah, that's worth it. Yeah. Camille 36:20 But I have to ask, but the thing is, like, I grew up in PWI is my whole life. So I have been a PWI. So predominantly white institutions. So I, I have been trained to write in this to write and to speak and to operate in this very, like, way that's acceptable to whiteness. So yeah, another part of showing up is being able to ask like, Okay, who am I writing this for? Rohadi 36:46 Yeah, yeah. Did you undo that? Did you shift the way? Because you're, you're describing writing unto a particular gaze? Yeah. I'm to switch to something else. Camille 36:56 Yeah. But um, it's like a constant accountability. Oh, yeah. Totally. Because the, the gaze is so important. g-a-z-e, but also g-a-y-s, depending on his Rohadi 37:11 I was thinking about the latter. I was always thinking about that, because the biggest thing for me, as I was writing, when we belong was, I have to continuously remind myself, I'm not writing to the white reader. Yeah, it was kind of annoying, because that when I would be saying, like, we are, you know, like generalising terms, that I was specific and catching myself if I was picturing in my head, the my own formation, which is in white evangelicalism. Yeah. And to switch my language if if I was doing that, and so, like, I don't know, if I will, I can't, I can't fully escape from both that formation and how it influences my work. But what I can do is offer intentionality of decentering that gaze, which I think I, which I think I did, because I was very specific. And like, I'm writing actually, I was writing for brown and black folks and Asian folks. But that was too narrow. So I did expand it and and added in the the marginalised in a larger group and which works, which could include, you know, includes a wider readership from a book buying perspective, but it also works from who the institution seeks to subjugate. Camille 38:47 Yeah. It's hard people. I'm talking about her this is. Rohadi 38:51 Yeah, but you know what? It's, it gets easier. It does get easier. It gets easier. And then you realise like more and more of your people and you're right towards it. You don't care like for my ministry stuff, I don't care what anyone else in within the institution has to say, because they have no say, I have little power anyways, like you just go about your business. Yeah. And stay in the unsatisfied curse that I am in. Camille 39:20 I'm legitimately so shocked when white people are like, like, I love listening and learning from you and like that, it sounds like you like I literally make fun of you every other day on Twitter. Like you've heard you've seen the terms that I use for whiteness, right? I have no, like, I am writing towards victims of sexual violence, but within that victim of sex, those victims of sexual violence like I'm also diving deeper into those who are experiencing intergenerational sexual violence from years of colonisation. Rohadi 39:59 You Don't know what it is you? Camille 40:03 And like so yes, there is a bell hooks writes about like the patriarchal female. How like, well, first and foremost, let's understand that patriarchy is not a gender based system. It's a system of power. So a female can be patriarchal transverse and can be patriarchal. But yeah, there's, she writes about the patriarchal female who is a female who usually calls herself a feminist and believes in women's rights, but will still give into that system of power instead of dismantling it. And so I like when we talk about like writing towards our audience, it's, there are times that it's like, I have to, like, make clear differentiations and say, like, you have probably experienced this type of hurt. And I recognise and I, I honour your healing, and I'm here to sit with you empathetically. But if you were still pursuing that system of power and upholding a system of power that keeps other people marginalised under you, then I'm not writing for you, huh? You know, I don't. I'm trying, like I'm trying earnestly to not ascribe to that. I've done it before. It's not satisfying. You know, Rohadi 41:23 let's wrap with pictures of the future pictures of what the future hope looks like maybe glimpsing pictures of hopefully what your kids can meander through when it comes to safe and, and life giving community. What does and perhaps you have pieces of it now? Liberated liberative Community Church community look like? Camille 41:57 You know, I'm still trying to find that out. Yeah, I think I get that. Yeah. Rohadi 42:04 That's an honest answer. That's like, yeah, Camille 42:06 yeah, I think I base a lot of my writing on abolition. And where people like, I've already said that community organising is not easy, and doesn't feel good. Demolition, like hurts more. Because you're constantly sitting in the place of recognising harm and truth telling. And there's different like modalities of justice, right? There's like Healing Justice, restorative justice, abolition. They're all important. They're all necessary. But abolition centres. The naming of harm and engaging in conflict in a really healthy way. But health healthy is not to say it's not equitable to feel good, right? It's not the same thing. When it comes to liberated church, it has to be a church that names harm, and is able to navigate through it. Not as not navigate through it as if you're playing like a board game. Like this isn't Candyland, you know. But navigating through it, knowing that harm is constant, and it's going to happen. But we have to name these things and hold people accountable. Well, that accountability happens within the community or that accountability happens by excommunicating someone from the community for the levels of harm that they've done, but also seeking for that person to be in a different healing community that will continue on their accountability journey. The church that is liberated, has to be the church that's willing to do that, versus the church that will just like just pass over. Rohadi 43:57 Or you'll name the harm in temporary spurts. So it's not Candyland. It's six week video course on reconciliation. That's our version of Candy Land. Yeah, that and that's like, made Camille 44:12 it made it done it. Yeah. It's like, the hurt that you experience should not be the catalyst for a programme. And I, Rohadi 44:22 yeah, that's a good word. A word tweet that write that down. Before we lose it. We recorded it. Camille 44:28 But I speak on that as like interpersonally. And institutionally, right, like, this morning tweeted about life coaches. There's a lot of spiritual abuse life images. There's a seminary that is somewhat close to me in Southern California, and they created a programme based off of student protests. Students were protesting the like marginalisation of identity. So they they listen to the students and instead of having pretty institutional changes within their infrastructure. They're creating a new programme, a master's degree in this Rohadi 45:08 right? Trying to be as I'll take your money. Yeah, Tucker's Camille 45:11 Exactly. And we have to wreck it. Like, we have to recognise that liberation is not a new programme. It's an on, it's like ongoing relational conflict. But when it comes to trauma, hurt and harm, I didn't talk about this before. But we have different ways that we attach to people relationally, their secure attachment, and then there's like the different modalities of insecure attachment. But our attachment issue or attachment styles are based off of how we've experienced fear in our lifetime growing up. Yeah. So in the church, I've come from many churches that can't like, like the white evangelical church that I went to, could not handle conflict, they just shut people out. Like if someone spoke up, they shut you out, the way that we we grow and we heal, and we have deeper meaningful relationships. It happens through how we engage in conflict in a manner that is restorative and edifying Rohadi 46:14 your modalities, on, on how we experience fear and the relational connections, has a direct impact on the manner that we pursue tangible reconciliation. Like it would never come in, in a set six week course, or whatever it might be. It's not a one size fits all, but it actually the way that you've described, all those different modalities must apply. Then on the other end, as you seek restoration and reconciliation, the repair of those things, the repair of unto right relationship will come in many different shapes and sizes. Oh man, that's your third book. That's deep and Camille 47:04 someone come here and just get back for a multiple book deal. Rohadi 47:08 He would make hundreds of dollars, hundreds, not on the book deal, but those are books that folks are taking. That's so good. I might take that I won't, because then I'd have to learn about all these things and maybe dig deep in my own soul. And, and, you know, I'm a grown ass man. We don't talk about our feelings. That's not healthy. Don't do that. Don't do that. Should go to therapy. Like a grown ass adult. This has been exceptional. I am just she has I don't know what else if that's the first word that came to my mind. Sorry, is that what the kids are saying? These days? You're not your book and what you're bringing? They're not. I've been growing up my hair too, because I thought that's what the kids are doing to geez, I gotta leave my house. The Hero and the Whore coming 2023, Sometime Fall 2023? Okay. I am very excited as you just knowing also the details of how you're shaped and formed the content of this book. Who chills before we go. Where can folks find you on the interwebs? What should we be signing up for? Camille 48:28 So on Instagram and Twitter and tick tock? My handle is at Hello Kenya. Ah, so whatever that sign is Hello, Camille. H. And then I have a substack Yeah, where I occasionally share poetry and essays. Rohadi 48:48 Yeah, yeah. seconds. Do they feel Camille 48:51 poetic is the title of it. The the website is camillehernandez.substack.com. And that's the place to go to access my writings. And yeah, that's That's it.