Rohadi 0:03 That's it. Season Seven, Faith in a Fresh Vibe. I'm your host Rohadi, thanks for being here in this 7th season. Welcome to the bonus episode I'm recording on Treaty 7 territory in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, and Metis Region Three. Thanks for being here. Thanks for sharing this podcast. Please do rate and follow all the guests and myself. Share with all your friends who are deconstructing decolonizing Christianity. This season started with my friend Gena Thomas coming through and interviewing me talking about my book that just came out When wWe Belong. Do you have your coffee yet? If not, no time, like the present, pick it up. Leave a review for that all of that helps. In this episode, it's a bonus episode. Bonus content. Didn't have to sign up for a Patreon for this bonus. My friend Marla Taviano comes back through and she offers me some questions as well that I answered. So we started and we will end with an interview around my book when we belong. We also centre our conversation around some of the tough questions, the illogical questions that I posed in my book, I chat about them. Then at the end of the podcast episode here, the bonus episode, I share some of my writing process. So any budding authors out there any folks committed to the craft, I share a little bit about how I do. Everyone's writing style is different, but I invite you to walk into the gifts that you've been given and cultivate that craft. Thanks for being here. Marla, thanks as well for the interview questions, Marla helped me write the study guide for when we belong. So you have a free discussion guide. If you want to read the book with your friends with a small group with a book club, do that available for download on my website or on the Herald press website. Have a great summer 2022 Until next season. marla taviano 2:33 It's just Okay, so I wasn't sure what to expect. I never know what to expect when I read a book. From a Christian publisher by a Christian, it can go I mean, a lot of different ways I knew from following you. I knew from following you that I was going to like it was not, it was not going to be a painful read that I just went through so that I could tell you that I read your book so many times. When I read something I like I told you that half of it is my comments are what Rohadi 3:10 we know is that it broke down things marla taviano 3:16 are no half of them are like that's how I feel or this is what I think or this whatever. And I will say and I don't I don't think since this is a Christian publisher, I don't think you cuss in the book at all. But I I cussed in your book. I wrote f this and F that and if f white evangelicals. So none of it was what you were saying. I even wrote f the church. That's kind of what I that's kind of my go to when I'm really mad Rohadi 3:53 about Yeah, me too. But in my head, which is no different. Really? Not Yeah. marla taviano 3:59 So. But I wanted to ask you first of all, so do you. Where do you find out? Where do you find all these books? Because the books that you listed? What I also personally loved is I counted? I think 16 of the books that you listed. I have read so we are reading a lot of the same thing. So where do you where do you find books? Do you know ahead of time I'm going to read this book because this is a person that I am going and I respect them. I'm going to agree with them. I mean, do you have to wade through a lot of like, how do you find out about your books, Twitter, Rohadi 4:44 the books I read? Probably Twitter. Yeah. So I'm like you and that grew up with white evangelicalism went to white seminary, and they don't call it that. They don't call it that. marla taviano 4:59 It's White seven, Rohadi 5:01 but also had a I'm not white. So that's a big piece. Just having a default into into different worldviews. Not that's not automatic, necessarily. But the other piece is I intentionally said, Oh, when did I say that probably when I stopped doing missional church stuff, because that was sort of my wheelhouse, and I was my wasn't gonna be my first my second book thrive is about it was going to be on church planning, but it was wound up being more about reimagining leadership in the church for in a post Christian context. So outside of inherited privileges. And I realised that after I did that, I knew while I was doing it, that this conversation, even though it was I wouldn't call it progressive, but it was it was storming the cultural narratives of consumer Christianity. And that that was interesting. But it was still dominated by white men. Like as far as the eye could see white men, white men, white men started the movement, white men were the keys to the movement, white men were being published, white men were at all conferences. So I was never going to get the time of day. And although it's shifting a little bit in the US now, a little bit, especially in the metro areas, I kind of committed around that time, looking at my bookshelf, so when would this be 2014? I'm not going to read books by white men anymore. already. I've read those books. I've spent all my formation reading those books. And so I have to consciously now add different authors. And so very rarely now do I purchase a book or read a book by a white male author on purpose, because I've done that thing. white females very similar to because they're over represented in publishing as well. But how do I specifically find it could be people I know. And it could be people like I still have an affinity for some pieces of evangelicalism that that comes out of bipoc. Teachers, theologians, so I do pay attention to those voices who are in the institution, but are producing and pushing against the regular mould, that might be a microcosm like that might be the echo chamber somewhat. But I also stretch into intentionally black, theological womanist, theological thinkers and writers, indigenous, and that's been a key for the past five years, maybe. So in the work of decolonizing, you must appeal to those voices. And so a lot of indigenous authors now and intentionally for this book, and when we belong, I made a point not to send her white authors and so I only quote to maybe, at least only two theologians that I can think of, because they were formative for me. And tea, right? Absolutely helped reframe my understanding of of resurrection. Walter, wink, same thing. Reframe around power, and principalities. So it's not this isn't about oh, White Men Can't write, they have nothing to add. It's just I've done that. There's a whole world for me to pick up on. And you know, what's really cool, I just read this here flesh by black liturgies Cole, Arthur Riley Riley. And she's younger than me. And a lot of the book is really similar to mine, but written in a different way. And I just as I was reading, I was thinking to myself, if this is the kind of stuff what and she reflects the next gen of writers, leaders, thinkers, public theologians, right? If this is what is being produced, I'm so excited. I'm thrilled. We have a bow because this is wild. It is incredible. It is all the good and right things and and I want to read and see more of that and more of it is coming. So every chance I get to raise those voices. I'm trying to do better at that. But also yeah, that's all a read now. And I can afford books now too, so I can I can buy them that's that's yeah, that's it so it will be people I know and also split very specific to topics I actually care about and and you know this like once you get a sense of at least Christian publishing specifically, you know what's coming out and who writes what, and what they're going to be writing on. And, and I'm not going to spend money on on certain books now. Because a I don't need it. Like, I don't need another book from a white guy writing about anti racism in the church, right? Other people can write that book now. And plus, that's not my space anymore. So yeah, it's relationship, keeping your eyes Twitter's a big help for sure of getting a sense. And then knowing who they are to. That's always fun to see your homies come up with books. And then you have these other ones that come out of nowhere. And like Unbeliev. And it's like this, these, this collection of all of like, the things that happen inside your head, and now they're on pages. marla taviano 10:49 Well, thank you for reading a book by white woman. That's kind of my thing, too, because I'm telling people, please read my book. I'm not going to read any books by white one. Yeah, but if you? Yeah, I was thinking when you were talking, I listened to your interview with Robert Monson recently, because I love following him on Twitter. And he had said something on Twitter, I don't even remember now a few months ago, about his reading for so much of his life being lopsided. And particularly, he wanted to read more black women to even that out and I have just used that analogy and thought about that so much that like my bookshelf behind me right now, it's entirely like for bookshelf school, no white people are on his bookshelves. I do have a white, a white person bookshelf. Rohadi 11:46 Next to me. marla taviano 11:51 But I have been reading since I was four years old, and I didn't stop and I was six. So and I know for a fact that 99 point, whatever percent of books I read for the first 35 years were by white people. And so just imagining how much reading I have to do to get that teeter totter like balance on lopsided. I have a really hard question for you. I don't know if you're gonna be able to answer this. My question for you is what first? Well, first of all, you were talking about the church planning that you used to do. And you you said that people today they don't have to unlearn something about church planning. Rohadi 12:35 I don't know in my context, yeah. marla taviano 12:37 I've talked to so many people who, like a friend of mine recently just said, Oh, I met Jesus when I was like, 26. And I guess he just didn't come with all that baggage, because I like I just learned about like him loving and did it and I was like, Wow, that must be so. I'm super jealous. I'm just the discernment of Scripture by a community mean, any theological position is up for grabs. The short of it is yes. Does this mean every doctrinal belief is subjective, and every theological insights opinion, again, yes. It doesn't necessarily mean they must all be discarded, but they certainly are productions of man, usually men and should always be scrutinised. Okay, so number one that makes you a heretic. The fact that you I mean, that you're saying this, but then you do go on to say that No, one? No. The one non negotiable is the incarnation, Jesus as fully God, fully man, along with his ministry, teaching, to sacrifice to make sense of the world and to definitely cross and subsequent defeat of those powers and resurrection is the one non negotiable. And I'm wondering if you have the words currently to articulate why, why you think that anything is up for grabs, but that that is non negotiable. Because I am questioning right now. Whether that for me, whether that really is non negotiable, like what is there anything left? That's, that's not negotiable. Rohadi 14:22 I used to say it was two things it was the resurrection and and the death and resurrection, or incarnation, which is kind of two things. And the Trinity. But that's not true. Because there are many Unitarians who hang out in you know, they have a different idea. And also tell the story of the Ethiopian so can't be that. Why only so that is opinion. I think there's a lot of folks now who are processing in the deconstruction world around the notion that you don't need resurrection. There is no story of of why bother with This whole story if there's no power that has been defeated, and it's reflected in the cross could have been, I guess other other ways. But there must be some substance behind the why. So both the why of Christianity, I think Christianity can be boiled down to, even though we all have our doctrinal statements, whatever, whatever. But but the resurrection piece is the why love, the resurrection piece is why bad things happen, or eventually won't like the whole narrative arc of God putting the world to rights, which I think is an unchanging dream. And that is a story of writing all the wrongs eventually is inaugurated, and previewed with the defeat of death on the cross. And so that's a story around power, and the possibility that we can love better and the possibility that wrongs can be turned right now. Because we have the whole fullness of the kingdom now all happens because of Jesus's victory over the powers of death, and all powers in in that moment. And so if you put that away, then you just have, and this is kind of tired, old teaching. You just have a prophet with some good teachings. And they're good teachings love one another, love your neighbour, love God. But when push comes to shove, I asked a question, I didn't bring this up in the book of why bother with any of that? Why bother left, because it's way harder to do those things? Why bother with justice, there needs to be a rationale that these things are, in fact, good. And the possibilities that the the unjust powers can be up turned, is rooted in the fact that they in fact, have been defeated. So that's why I don't give it up. And I haven't found a compelling reason to, to say that the resurrection is not needed. There's no Christian story without resurrection, it's something else. And a lot of people go in that direction where they still have this Jesus figure. But they miss the cataclysmic thing, that moment in history that changed everything, like it's gotta change everything. Or it's just becomes Okay, teaching, right? So I, and this is the belief part, believe that resurrection altered the course of history. And that early church was embodying that fundamental belief that the powers around them were defeated. And we're in the process of being defeated, which is what made them so radically inclusive, and what made them do the things against an empire that was literally killing them, because of their belief in that and and they're witnessing to the magnitude of that power. Anti right day, the revolution began will explain it better than I could. That was one of the key books for me. And I think it would probably work for you because you have all this theological pieces to make sense of, of that book, really the ultimate question of why the cross even matters, because all the other answers are useless, like to satiate God's wrath to atone for my sins. So to appease the need for sacrifice, that all those things, they're incomplete and needs to fit into a grand story of God putting the world to rights, and its inaugurate in resurrection marla taviano 19:20 carries with it yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about that. But I won't go into all I'm still trying to figure out Rohadi 19:26 that book was really crucial for me, not that I was walking away or anything like that, but there was nothing suitable that answered that question around. Why the cross? So Christus Victor, which is a theory of atonement, and then the work of also nonviolent Atonement by Weaver actually, I call it in the book. Oh, that's three white guys. Dammit. Oh, three white guys. So three white guys, but yeah, the Weaver book on nonviolent tomen gives you a lot out a framework outside of evangelical thinking that's crucial. And the day the revolution began by anti write those two books that will fill in most of the blanks. And if you don't want to go down that road fine, but those to at least give the the meat and potatoes. I use that metaphor, the meat and potatoes of resurrection and why that is the crucial event. marla taviano 20:26 I think if I like my biggest problem with what evangelicals believe is all of the, you know, substitution, all that all that stuff. I think it just that violence translates into more violence. I don't know. It's like a, Rohadi 20:39 it's mediaeval. Yeah, yeah, it's not it's not early church stuff. That is mediaeval stuff that comes 1000 years later, 1500 years later, well, 1000 years later, like, no, marla taviano 20:51 yeah, on those lines, when you're talking about all you I love the parts in the book about indigenous spirituality and things you're learning. That's one of the big that was a huge gap in my education and reading and learning. Yeah, me too. I've just been reading so many indigenous authors and finding out more, but the whole idea of we believe in a Bible that was written here, and then we find out oh, actually, we believe something that was put into the Bible at this time. And then what you're saying when we like, the ways that we even read the Bible, or learn things, or think are also very Western ideas, like, imagine going back to indigenous ways of being and thinking and being connected to the land and all of that, like, I just feel like it's this. The smaller and smaller, like, the more I learned, the smaller my bubble that I was in feels like I was so in this tiny little everything. I had to think this way I was I didn't realise that I was being taught how to think how to be how to deal what to know what to love. What's it like, and the whole the earth and the land and creation was nothing to evangelical Christians. Rohadi 22:13 Burn? Yeah, getting out of here. marla taviano 22:16 Yeah, it's everything. It's all. It's all upside down. Like, it's all backwards. It's Rohadi 22:24 what's rooted in conquest and colonisation. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. marla taviano 22:30 Manifest Destiny and doctrine of discovery and all that crap. Just lies. Anyway. So I love your book, and I'm gonna tell all the people about it. I'm glad you wrote it. Do you love to write that was one of my other questions like, Is this something you have thoughts in your mind? And you need to get them out? So you do it? Or do you actually love to write or? Rohadi 22:53 Oh, it's both? Yeah, for sure. Like all writers, I think, are folks who have ideas swimming around their minds, and you have to put them out. You have to cultivate that though. For me, at least you can get into that zone, and things are flying, you know, it's just like, I'm unstoppable. I've got all stars everywhere. And it helps if I'm angry too, because then it's just like, I gotta do all these things. So like, there's that I've never really cultivated like practices around writing unless I had deadlines. So I'm not like, Oh, I'm going to do 30 days of poetry, or I'm going to do I've, and I think this is, to my detriment, haven't done a lot around creative writing. So I fall short, haven't read, haven't written fiction, that kind of stuff. And so I feel like the craft of writing, I have committed to I write every day, but I don't. I haven't entered into the deeper pieces of that craft, like around poetry, or like, we've done spoken word pieces and things like that. But so I feel like, I feel like all the people with their arts degrees in creative writing, or their Ma's and whatever, like they can write, like, they like the copy editors on my book, like the mountain like It's wild. So like, I can write, and then there's like, another level of of writing. So I kind of think of it as as I want to be gifted and talented storyteller. One of the avenues is writing and want to be a better writer, of course, and there's so much of that writing world out there. So, I mean, how do you you sense your own writing? You're obviously have to write like writers just have to write, you know? LTL explo