Rohadi  0:02  
Season Seven. Faith in the Fresh Vibe podcast. I'm your host Rohadi, coming at you from Treaty 7 territory in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. This little ditty you're hearing right now new intro and outro from Jesse Peters. Thanks, Jesse. Episode Two. I have a fantastic guest, Gena Thomas is in the house y'all find her books separated by the border. That's her latest, most recent, but she has a new project on the go talking about abundance. That one is coming no date yet. And we talked about it on the last 10 minutes. This is about an hour long. So take it off in bite sized pieces or the whole thing at once we meet Gena, she shares a little bit about her family, her faith formation, what it meant, and means to grow up Evangelical, but also what she did when her faith and the world around her clashed. Her book is about an experience in the foster system. Also connected to adoption. Just a lot of processing faith when how you see and understand the world. Most importantly, informed by relationships with people who don't look think act right, not even part of the same country as you and how they inform us to imagine and reimagine a better direction for our faith tomorrow. That's faith in a fresh vibe. So without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, Gena Thomas.

For our listeners, we always begin with a sense of context, and we want to get to know you and also get to know the lands that you you're situated on. So let's begin with that. Where are you? And whose lands are you on?

Gena Thomas  2:17  
Yeah, I am located in Concord, North Carolina. It's right outside of Charlotte, and I am on the Catawba nation lands. 

Rohadi  2:29  
I was just looking and this is going to sorry, that total tangent again at some Twitter thing this morning about not dialects. What was it? Maybe it was dialects or accents. And how like, so much all of Canada pretty much is the same and then it's really close to. But so when and it's always interesting for me, we kind of I think sound the same at least in our thinking to myself, is that like a Carolina's thing? Like it's definitely not a Minnesota thing. And I don't hear any of that. So do all the Carolinas sound like Gena?

Speaker 2  3:14  
No, actually, they don't. It's probably so I have a mix of like Western New York because that's where I'm originally from. And then some like South will come out like some like Southern drawl will come out every once in a while. So it might be more than New York thing that we sound similar through. Okay, yeah. So down here. I don't have much of an accent. But when I go back to New York, I have an accent so.

Rohadi  3:43  
To them or you or you to them, okay. To them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we have a picture of where well actually many Canadians wouldn't like oh, yeah, the Carolyn Nope. It's in the centre somewhere. It's the worst host. Make fun of where you're from? Speak. Good. It's all good. Let's switch gears and and share a story about we contextualise faith in this podcast. And so to capture a sense of your story? Not necessarily. So when did you come to faith and at what age did you come to know Jesus? We want to just get an understanding of the key formative moments that have shaped and placed you in the space you're in now.

Speaker 2  4:42  
Yeah. So like I said, I grew up in upstate New York. I am second or third generation Italian depending on who you ask. But my grandfather came to the US us. And then my mother was born, was born here. And the Italian family is Catholic. And so there's a lot of roots in the Catholic faith and church. So I grew up going to Catholic mass at Christmas and Easter. And that was kind of my, as far as the church goes, the Catholic church that was really my only kind of intersection there. But my mom, prior to all of us kids being born on one of three, she had decided to become a Protestant. And so that was a big deal in the family. And we are the only Protestants. And so there was kind of this, like, large, what felt like kind of a barrier between faith because I remember growing up in evangelical Christian culture and hearing things, whether implicit or explicit about Catholicism. And actually, I was hearing some of this from your podcast recently with Omar. Yeah, yeah, that guy where he, yeah, where he was talking about, just kind of how growing up it was like, we had to separate ourselves from Catholics. So like, in order to be like, pure good. Evangelicals, you didn't do what Catholics did. And so it was, it was interesting to be a part of, you know, a church, family and community that had that mentality, but then also be a part of a family that was Catholic. And I remember, I used to have conversations all the time with my great aunts and uncle. They were twins. And my uncle was a priest to Catholic priest, and my aunt was a Catholic nun is a Catholic, done. And we at our family dinners, like we would sit and we would just hash it out theologically. And it was so awesome, and so good. And they were so Christ, like in so many ways that I knew, deep in my heart that there's no way this can be the reality of what's being taught to me at church, by my great aunt who's still alive and going. She has always, or both of them had always invited people who didn't have family to come to family dinners, people who didn't have anywhere else to go on Thanksgiving to join us. And so they were always looking out for those on the margins. And my aunt is still doing that now she started a homeless shelter, an open door homeless shelter, so they never say no to anybody. And Rochester, New York. And so that lifestyle, that example, was always in front of my face. So anytime I think that I had the temptation to kind of believe the brainwashing that was there, it wouldn't stick it wouldn't hold up. So. So there's there's formation and that and that I absolutely loved going to church, I, we were there all the time. We were there was a Christian school attached to the church. So we went to school at that school. I mean, we were there just it was I knew that building as well as I knew my own home. But I also knew that there were things that didn't sit right with me. And so yeah, but I never remember a day without Jesus always. I've always felt like Christ has been in me and a part of me, regardless of what I'm going through, or where my faith sad or any of that. And so I'm so grateful for that. Yeah, when I moved from, we moved around quite a bit when I was in middle school. And when we finally landed in North Carolina, we continued going to an evangelical church. And then I was part of like, the Bible club at the public school, like all the stuff, right? So in college as part of like, the Christian clubs there, and just always questioning and wondering, like, what does it mean to be like Jesus? And so what's interesting about I think about some of this, some of these discussions around deconstruction is that I kind of view it a little bit differently than I think most people do. And I think you certainly do too. And your, your book, which is just a wonderful expression of what faith can be, and I'm so excited for it, is that deconstruction to me, is just asking questions about our faith, right? Like, what am I being taught? That's not actually Christ, right? What am I being taught? That's not Bringing people in with pushing people away. What am I being taught that's exclusive and not inclusive? And I feel like I've been asking those questions my whole life. So it's not anything different necessarily, except that now it's on a greater scale, and maybe more socially acceptable. And maybe actually, like, kind of all of us in this, at least I feel like in our generation are like, what were we taught that wasn't right, and what can we hang on to? And what do we need to let go of? And that seems like a very natural thing to do with anything we believe, or our lives? Yeah. So you use the

Rohadi  10:44  
word loved? To describe your loved going to church. Was that foreshadowing? where you're at today?

Speaker 2  10:56  
Hmm. That's a really good question. I think, a community of people seeking what it means to have faith has always been something that I love. I've never stopped loving that community. What is hard right now about going to church, and I do attend church. And I'm grateful for the one that I get to attend, because the pastor is someone who holds open hands when I bring questions to him about faith, and not all pastors do that. I think the challenge about loving church right now for me, is that I want to see Jesus at church. And I think, the Jesus that I know, and the Jesus that I don't know, the one that I want to know. And unfortunately, so much of what is being portrayed at church is a Jesus that people have made up have made in their image. And that's not the Jesus I want to see. Or nor do I want my children to view when they go to church.

Rohadi  12:16  
So you described your, what was going through my mind, as you said, you were in the Bible club, maybe wasn't Bible club in high school, and like y'all had a Bible club. The, and then continued into college. Was there a moment where things started to get bumpy along that ride?

Speaker 2  12:48  
Yeah, I think the big moment for me was in was not until 2016. Is that when Trump when Trump came into election cycle, and, and I like from I mean, he started, you know, going around the country before them. So whenever he started, that process was when I just I was just amazed over and over again, my friends, Christian friends, who were eating up what he was saying, we had my husband, I had previously lived in Mexico. And one of the first things that Trump said was, he was talking about Mexicans. And our hatred, hatred for what he said, and our anger about it didn't have anywhere to land in our community here. And I was befuddled by what felt like a veil. I mean, it still feels that way. And so it was, it was during that process where we left the church that we were a part of, for a long time. After kind of realising that, you know, the people who were forming us and people who we were forming people who were all like, you know, on this faith journey with had such very different perspectives of power, privilege, economics, hatred for people who were other than them. And kind of along that, around that same time, we started having some deeper conversations with friends of colour of ours who are at the same church, and kind of hearing how they're being treated. And just realising, like all of this stuff kind of coming together. And it's like, this is not, this is not where we need to be. And so we kind of went through this process of because that was what Christian Christianity was around us, especially here in the south, in the Bible Belt. There were the there were several times is where we are like, are we even Christians anymore? Can we even call ourselves Christians? Because every Christian that we know around us Yeah, yeah. Is not what we thought they were so yeah. So yeah, I think it was that that was just like, wow, like we are being formed by Christ. I thought but no, we're not like, this is not a place where the Jesus that I know from Scripture is more important than the powerful person that will get you what you want. So, yeah, I think that was probably the biggest moment for us. For me.

Rohadi  15:37  
It's certainly a factor of Christian culture, but especially poignant in states, or regions that are still quite Christian, at least by affiliation, that everything around you even if it had a different name, or even a little different denomination, that it all came in the same size, it all came in the same sort. It was all the same. They probably saying the same songs. And they all certainly voted the same. And which I think is an indictment on to Christianity, and contemporary Christianity that looks the same as is, is. If you'll all look like Empire, then the whole thing is broke.

Speaker 2  16:35  
Right? And if you aren't talking about Empire at all,

Rohadi  16:39  
yeah. Oh, you're in bed with Empire? Just don't say that. Because we're working for our slice of the power plants, right? Ooh, power pie. Let me write that down. That's good. That could go on like a sweater with a picture of a pie. Okay, the more I talk about that, the less it sounds like. A slice of pie. Okay. See, I said it the third time, and it's not as good, vile sit on it. It's quite something that you would describe, which would have been yourself and your husband, where you kind of in in your in a silo? Was it just you to sort of kicking around? And also you mentioned some of your other friends and community, but was it just you to sort of processing like, holy crap? Like, we look around us? Like, what the hell?

Speaker 2  17:34  
Yeah. So I would say there are definitely other people who were processing that to a different degree. I think, US and alongside of our several friends of colour, we're just like, what is happening right now like this is? It's this is not just something to like, process, and then stay here. Yeah, continue to do this thing. And I think, you know, for some people, it was just like, oh, this is just something that we have to like, work through. Yeah. And push forward on and we're like,

Rohadi  18:04  
Ah, this listen to both sides here. And then we'll decide. Right? Why. So I think this is fascinating that you would name this because I would assume, maybe wrongly, that for folks who have grown up in the church who have gone to church, now you've had the the gift of family that pointed you to the different possibilities. But why didn't you do what was probably easier, and follow suit with the other folks who are sort of half assing their questioning and and just stay like to from your formation of your really your whole life up to that point? To come to a place where you said, I think we're going to have to leave this in a relatively short period of time. Is that Is that about? Right? Like around Trump? So it's a short period of time? Like, how did you do that? How? Well most people don't do that. That's wild. Yeah.

Speaker 2  19:19  
I think the connection that we made with people of faith in Mexico, we lived in Mexico for four and a half years. The connection of faith that we made, or the connection that we made with people there would not let us stay. What do I say to my friend from Mexico, who's saying why is your President calling us all rapists? And you voted for him? Oh, no. Or your church voted for him. There is a sense of accountability that comes from the relationships that Have you built with people over time. And another reason is that I have questioned things all along, I've probably show you some crazy emails that I had sent the different different church staff about different things that happened. One of them was HB, two bill or whatever that bill was in North Carolina, about bathrooms. And there were a couple of other things. And it became very clear to us because we even sat down and had a conversation with the pastor and said, what, like, can you talk to us about these things? But it became very clear that a, my questions were annoying. They weren't welcome. They were at first. And this is the thing that's interesting, like, what's interesting about, I think, people who are deeply faithful and also questioners, as that you arrive in a new spiritual space, and you are like, kind of like gold, like, wow, you're like really thinking about stuff so deeply your interests or you love theology, or like, love theology, or faith is amazing, like all this stuff. But then there comes a point in time where those questions are no longer welcome, because they are rubbing someone wrong. They are making people look in the mirror and think, I don't want to think when I see this question, I don't want to know the answer. Because I don't want to be iron sharpening iron. I mean, that that's kind of how I feel about it is that most people when you really think about it don't want to be sharpened in the way that we need to be sharpened in our faith. And, and so I think it kind of came to a culmination during all of this where it was like, they don't really care that we're here. I mean, it kind of made that clear in the in the meeting. We're not at the time, we were on welfare. So we weren't tithing much, or tithe didn't mean much. Oh, geez. And so it was like, what is it to say, oh, like you guys, you can

Rohadi  22:13  
go to more trouble than it's worth.

Gena Thomas  22:15  
Yeah, exactly.

Rohadi  22:18  
Like that story. In, although the details might be slightly different, oh, man, that's a story for them. So many who have been run over? It's the theological version of Dr. Rahu. And this would be used in the racialized sense. But when the theological pet became a threat, it was so good that you're searching Oh, that says, oh, but you went too far. So it was in fact, relationships. That became the informing attribute, or what made the reality around you incongruent with your beliefs. It wasn't like a theologic. Maybe it was, you know, partially theological or thinking, but it was in fact, the tangible connection you had with other people. That pushed you with apea. Yeah, accurate portrayal. When you said that, and I think a good just processing what you said. And it's, it's so deeply meaningful that your relationships you were formed and equally as a give and take in relationships with your friends, that altered your understanding of your faith, and where you could sit and the application to that through a number of different topics, but I will think of one that is applicable to the most people surrounding COVID or pandemic life. And I was just reflecting, as you noted, the relationship piece and how that animals like we Yeah, yeah, that's the way it's supposed to be. Because I think of all the folks where they hear they might hear our story or there hear the story. No, no, let's be more specific. Folks who have heard our story in this house of of my partner and now suffering disabled because of long COVID. And, and people we have relationships with do not make any altering choice are not impacted by that story. Yeah, that makes you question the tears of friendships, to put it out anyway. But it said that hurts,

Speaker 2  24:44  
does it is because ultimately, it's about mutuality, right? Ultimately, if we really want to talk through like, if we really want to level all these hierarchies that we've created in society We do so through mutuality. Yeah. It's reciprocation. Right. So if if, for example, I were to say, Hey, friends in Mexico who formed me spiritually, and to, you know, were my neighbours, and who cared for my child and who were patient with my, with my Spanish for the last four and a half years, if I say to them, Look, I know this guy is talking crap, but he's just a politician. Doesn't mean what he's saying, right? Or, I don't know, I just downplayed what he said. And they had been standing up for my dignity. In fact, several of them had done things along the way in our lives, Mexico, that protected us from things that would happen, for example, we would drive to the big city and have someone have a Mexican neighbour in the car with us. Because if we didn't, when the police stopped us for no reason, we would have to pay a bribe. These friends did different things, and use their privilege to stand up for my dignity because they knew certain injustices were not okay. In the same sense, that mutuality here is to say, look, I don't care if everyone who is around me who says they're a Christian, who, whatever is saying it's okay for this guy to say what he's saying. He's talking about my friends, and I will stand up for their dignity, not just because they stood up for mine, but because it's the right thing to do. And it turns into mutuality, right? It's how we stand up for each other is important.

Rohadi  26:57  
Like that, how we stand up for each other i dignity was the word you used? And how you give life to one another? Like, where is that like, in many ways we can identify, we can pinpoint, we can touch and see where the depths or where the substances in those relationships are any relationships when we appeal to the spaces or feel the aspects of what gives life. Right. Why do you think we suck so bad at this? We I mean, generally speaking, let's say we generally speaking, contemporary Christians.

Speaker 2  27:42  
Yeah. I think it's because of power. I really do.

Rohadi  27:49  
Okay, okay. Hang on. Let's absorb that. Yeah. We suck at mutuality, or, or identifying life. Yeah, cause of power. Okay. Okay. This is your next book, man. Okay, just you. That's a word. That's a word. Okay. Lay it on.

Speaker 2  28:16  
So part of the issue part of the way, you know, the ways that we have to like Cushing, this word, this phrase white privilege, we have to push in white supremacy, right. It's all of this stuff is based on power. Like if we can come to a point at me as a white women come to a point and say, society gives me a certain amount of privilege and power, simply because of my skin colour. No other reason than that. It's not anything I deserve. And then I can start moving forward and saying, Okay, this is what it is, it is in jest. And I can move forward with that and say, in order for me, to stand up for the dignity of others, I first have to recognise what privileges I've been given. Because if I don't do that, then what I'm saying is all of our dignity in society's eyes is the same. And that's not true. All of our dignity in God's eyes is the same. I 100% believe that, but just because someone is deserving of a Mago day does not mean that they are treated in that same,

Rohadi  29:40  
right. Yes, they're not given.

Speaker 2  29:43  
Yes, that's right. And if we don't recognise that, then all we're doing is platitudes. We're not actually creating mutuality. We're not actually creating equity. We're not creating equality. We don't actually believe in equality. We just say that we do. Oh,

Rohadi  30:00  
boy, oh boy. That's such a good word Gina. I don't know, I feel like a lot of folks on the podcast will be thinking of, of what you said, but would be nodding their heads. And I think those folks now need to send the episode to the people in their lives who need to hear that word. Because because you just don't get there on your own. And the danger, the fear I have in many respects is because our relationships, especially for white folks are so segregated that you don't have, like Gina had for years in Mexico, that so many don't have the connection the substance with other people that would lend them to the to just those possibilities of a different world, and a more liberated world. Oh, that's good.

Don't forget, if you are enjoying faith in the first five podcasts, don't hesitate to like us and share us. Wherever you get your podcasts, it helps a lot. Let's jump back into our conversation with Gina Thomas. Because white people aren't the focus of my book, but I did expand it to include white folks by shifting the narrative to include everyone who considers himself marginalised by the contemporary church. I wanted, I didn't want to do a tonne around whiteness. But it was inescapable. But it still it was only right, I think, like, a couple paragraphs.

Speaker 2  31:44  
Yeah. So the quote says white exclusivity isn't necessarily evil. But it is woefully incomplete to develop an understanding of what it means to be Christian in a modern world. It goes right along what we are saying. That should lead us to confront Christianity condoning these activities and ask which traditions cause or caused harm, and which ones produce life? That question stretches beyond religious thought, whose gaze determines what's right, extends into every cultural pipeline of you interrogated whose gaze gets to determine common norms pertaining to health, wholeness, beauty, spirituality, in virtually everything we share that makes us human.

Rohadi  32:29  
That sounds okay.

Unknown Speaker  32:31  
That's good stuff.

Rohadi  32:32  
That's kind of smart. Yeah, she put it in a book. It's kind of weird hearing that because I'm like, Geez, that makes a lot of sense. You wrote it. Thank you. For that's a good segue, man. Okay, I don't want to leave the mutuality and the notions of dignity. I asked you the question of why we suck. We suck at it. And yeah, love the response. Okay. So easy to say emperor has no clothes. How can we cultivate deeper? This will be your third book, then? No, you have a book before separate by the border. Right? Yeah. Yeah, this would be your fourth book.

Speaker 2  33:27  
Yeah. So one of the one of the quotes that I go back to all the time, is from Paulo Freire, who wrote he's a Brazilian theologian and wrote pedagogy of the oppressed. He says in that, that no, human, no one can be authentically human, if they are preventing someone else, from being so. And I think that that ties back into this aspect of dignity and that if those of us who have privilege and the different ways that we have privilege, right, so whether that's, if you're straight, if you're white, if you're a man, like all this stuff, right? All the different privileges that we have, if you're educated if you have money, all the ways if you're a theologian, and all the different ways that we have privileges in this world, if all we are doing is kind of throwing stuff down from the different rungs, I just have this vision always in my head, wrong of humanity right on this ladder, this ladder of humanity, and we're all kind of on different rungs of it. And that's not how I want humanity to look like but that's how it does look like and if all we're ever doing is throwing stuff down to the people below us. We are still we are preventing our own humanity from being authentic as much as we are preventing anyone else from being authentic and I think that's what whiteness perpetuates. And as Christians what we have to be battling on a regular basis

Rohadi  35:28  
so decentering of power. Yeah. Power is the roadblock to wholeness. Well, that's a good

Unknown Speaker  35:38  
that's good. That's really good.

Rohadi  35:41  
Power is the roadblock to wholeness. That's, that's Paulo to Gina. And then rohhad He put it on a sweater and right, they broke

Unknown Speaker  35:56  
out along with what is it the power pie?

Rohadi  35:59  
The power pie? Yeah, that'll be on the front. When you set it, it sounds a little bit better. We'll work on it. That's okay. We'll get the power is the roadblock to wholeness. Yeah, okay, that's at least a tweet. I might even get the typewriter out for that. That's so good. Gina. So, oh, okay, if people will pause now. And then we want to switch gears away from the, I think, very formative reflections that you offered. Surrounding power surrounding what it means to draw and deeper into relationships. Man, I wish I had more of those. Like, what it's so hard. It's hard. But it's also like, and this has the cynicism in me thinking of. It's easier for people, especially Christians to toe party line, to just stay complacent to stay within the safe confines of the church walls. But Freedomain there are maybe we're the baddies.

Unknown Speaker  37:11  
Yeah, we are to some people.

Rohadi  37:15  
So you spent four and a half years in Mexico, is that right? But you're also we're around other spaces, other countries. I feel like it's Guatemala. Honduras, I knew that darn way to do your pre Work row, Hattie. And so in this moment, so 2018. When did you write the book? So 2017 You're talking about your, your, your the catalyst that is pushing you away from the church world that you knew. When does the book idea comes through?

Speaker 2  37:51  
Yeah, so it was 20. It was later in 2017. When we signed up to foster parents. Yeah, okay. Okay. Okay, October

Rohadi  38:01  
draws through the story as if I've never read it before.

Speaker 2  38:04  
Okay, so Andrew, my husband, we, when we were in Mexico, we were trying to adopt, nothing really worked out doors closed. And at the same time, I was studying international development through Eastern University. And I started kind of, through that programme started kind of asking questions that I didn't know that I should have been asking some of which were Why do I want to adopt in Mexico, but I have never thought about adopting in the United States. In my home country, I've always had always thought about adopting internationally. So when we were in Mexico, and the doors closed, I started thinking about it differently and thought, maybe this is good. They have some pretty strict rules there where you, it really needs to be Mexicans that Mexican children go to which I think is really important. And it's not to say that no American can adopt, but there were other other factors to that too. And so. So I was grateful for that experience. And then when we came back to the United States, which was in 20, the end of 2014 2013. Sorry, I'm started kind of looking into Okay, well, what is adoption, like in the US, and then started researching the foster care system and, and kind of that whole process and then started questioning things like, Why do I want to adopt Why Why not Foster? Why not? Kind of be a safe space for a child to be in while parents get stuff situated and figured out What's in them, they can bring the kids back. So all of that kind of led to us becoming foster parents in October of 2017. We replaced with two girls. And yeah, so then it was February of 2017, 2018, February of 2018. We got a call from a social worker saying that there was a girl who they had in the office who only spoke Spanish. And they knew that Andrew and I both spoke Spanish. So they asked if we would take her in for the weekend, we were told that ice and or our Office of Refugee Resettlement would come and get her on Monday.

Rohadi  40:43  
It was Friday right now.

Speaker 2  40:44  
So this was actually right in the same area that I currently live. So Concord, North Carolina. So we went, picked her up, brought her to our house, had her say that weekends and on Monday showed up to court and ice and or our did not show up to court. So that was rescheduled for the next week. They still didn't show up the next week. So then she was kind of turned over into foster care system. So Holy Cow is the name that I've given her in the book. That's not her real name. Julio was then placed in our home as a foster care. Part of the foster care process. And then we were trying to figure out what happened to her parents, because we didn't really know we had different stories. We were finally able to make contact with her mom, I think it was about 10 days later. And we're able to then kind of piece together what had happened. And what happened to us. And so about the same time that we were placed with our first foster care placements, they were coming to the US from Honduras. So they were making their way up through Guatemala, and then through Mexico. And at the Mexico border. They were separated, wholly out crossed into the US with her stepfather and her mother stayed behind. She was taken as a hostage by the smugglers that they paid to bring them to where they were. So when she came to the US, she came as what's called an unaccompanied minor. Obviously, she was not unaccompanied because she was there with her stepdad. But she was separated. Because the policy that that everyone kind of found out about in 2018, was actually happening for a whole year before most people found out about it. So children were being separated forcibly at the border from like, July 2017, till June 2018. And nobody really knew about it until May or so of 2018. So, she was separated. He was deported. her stepdad was deported. And she came in unaccompanied, which meant she then then went to a sponsorship family. The sponsorship family that she went to was her stepdads sister's home in North Carolina, in my county. So that's how she ended up in foster care here. So we then kind of worked through for the next four months or so of her being with us, connected with a consulate worked with social workers had to get like a home study done, because she's now in the foster care system. And the foster care system has specific rules for what you have to do in order to get out right in order to be reunited with your with your family. And those rules include a home study. So we had to get the 100 and consulates to get somebody to do a home study at her mom's home in Honduras, for her to be released from here, which just seems completely convoluted if you really think about anchors, right? So it was in June, when her she was we got all the stuff together. She her case was adjudicated, and she was able to return to her mom, but it wasn't until July that we were able to get the Honduran paperwork because she crossed into the US without a passport. So we had to get something so that we could take her back without the Honduran government thinking that we were smuggling her back. Right. So it was just kind of a crazy process. But all of that to say that the books separated by the border is kind of a braiding almost to three different stories. So it's them other story biological mother's story. Lupe, Julio story. Little girl, she was five when she came to live with us. And then my story because I had also spent time in Honduras and Mexico. And so it follows. It goes from Honduras to Mexico to United States, kind of all of us. And what happened to each of us during those in those places? So,

Rohadi  45:25  
yeah, and that sort of made it like that this is the wrong time to laugh. But this is the when we think of Christian bucks, and Christian books that could be turned into documentaries or movies like actually, yours, the way that the narrative shifted between countries and settings that I thought was gripping.

Speaker 2  45:55  
Thank you. I appreciate that very much. You know, earlier you had asked like, what kind of these moments of of our faith that is, yeah, just these like catalyst moments of big faith moments. And I think, yeah, that this story, certainly did something to my faith in the sense of you know, the story of Jacob wrestling with God and walking away with a lamp, I think this the story with my limp. There, there are a couple of moments where the angst of Christ on the cross, wondering where God was, I have never felt that angst before the story,

Rohadi  46:48  
who you'll have to engage in to the book to capture for listeners, more details and to be wrapped into the narrative separated by the border, a birth mother, a foster mother, and a migrant child's 3000 mile journey that came out at the end of fall 2019 or the fall 2019. I want to ask what the reception was, because I think in the Evangelical, especially the fundamentalist world, that's, that's pro immigration, it's paying attention to the you know, real stories, rather than vilifying and creating a character that is not true. I got the sense. But before we get there, I got the sense as you as you were writing, also, as you were sharing today, but also through the book, the tension that you were rolling through in terms of, of adopting, and this space like what at first when I read it, it's like, oh, the white people are at it again. Yeah, they're gonna go see, they're gonna go save a little Mexican child. Even though that child's from Honduras. So there was an element I think of of that I read through, I felt the interaction and the tensions of white saviour ism. Yeah, I don't think you so in correct me if I'm if I'm wrong, sorry to cut you off. That you. You don't centre, the narrative of the book around that. But I got a sense that that you were processing aspects of that throughout without In fact, I don't know if you named it as white saviour ism. But I had that sense that there was also a shift that was happening.

Speaker 2  49:00  
Yeah, for sure. And actually, I do think I name it at the beginning of the in the introduction. Yes. So here's, here's my, my biggest problem with foster care and adoption. Instead of caring for a family, because every child comes from someone, we can easily turn it into white saviour ism, because it's a child is a dependent, and instead of uplifting the family and working to the family's wholeness toward the family's wholeness. What often ends up happening, and this is certainly not always but what often ends up happening is that it's just to focus on the child and I think it's easier to focus on the child and it sounds way better to Just focus on the child because, again, going back to that power, we as adults, we inherently have power over children. What if we contend with family, and I've and there is quite a bit of international work right now being done around family strengthening, and I'm very grateful to hear this happening, I think it needs to happen more often. But in order to contend with our own power and privilege, we have to rub up against this idea that we are not upholding the dignity of the parents. We are actually just possessing the child. And that is a very difficult thing to come face to face with. As someone who has wanted to adopt since I was 16. It's a very tough thing to walk through and important. Just because it's tough doesn't mean it's not important. But that was a lot of what was happening within me. And then on top of that, she Malia is Afro Latina. And so she looks like she's black. And walking around, you know, going to the grocery store or going to McDonald's with a child who clearly did not come from my womb was a whole different way of contending with the white saviour ism as well, because it was visible,

Rohadi  51:44  
may have to name to commend that you have processed in relatively short amounts of time processed, whereas life in in these forks in the road, whether they're resources people, you've we've already named relationships, that that helped either alert you or become more cognizant of your place within the adoption, slash foster care world and world.

Speaker 2  52:21  
Yeah, so there were a couple of books that I read, one is called till the end of June. And it's not a Christian book. But it's Chris beam wrote it and she talks through this idea of possessing children and that if, if, in essence, foster children only learn at the end of their time with you that they were a charity project, you have done them no help. And I think my own kind of wrestling this, this happened in my first book, a smouldering wick between the idea of justice and the idea of charity really helped come to this position that I'm at now. Because it really it really does boil down to that, is that, are we doing justice? Or do we believe in a God of justice? Or do we just believe in a God of charity, because I think most of us, act as if, and believe as if God is only a God of charity, not a God of justice.

Rohadi  53:34  
We wouldn't even name it. as such. That's a right. I love that distinction that you've made, we use the word justice, but to actually name that we would reflect a God of charity of one off of whatever works for us, or fits our world. That's different.

Speaker 2  53:55  
Yeah. And then I would also say that, so the church that we are back at now is the church that walked us through this time with Julio, and she, she needed it, because this is a church that has a lot of leaders of colour, including the main pastor. And when she first came into our home, she was struggling quite a bit with her own skin colour. And so that was not necessarily something that we could exemplify justice in, in our own skin, right. So having people who got up on stage at church who looked like her, and, and even in the sense that there were a couple of leaders at that church, who had previously done foster care, they were in social services. So there were things that were there were intellectual things that they knew to flag for us that we wouldn't have known otherwise like, Hey, she's triggered right now in this moment? What does that mean? And how do you work through that? So it wasn't just their skin colour. And it wasn't just their positions of power, but it was several different aspects of it that I think, brought healing to her that otherwise would not have been brought. One of the other ways in which we stepped down from the ladder is we say that, then recognise that we can't bring all the healing, like there was not one group can bring all the healing,

Rohadi  55:37  
right. In the way you think it needs to be brought.

Unknown Speaker  55:40  
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Rohadi  55:43  
Well, we want to trail off our conversation in two directions. One we want to hear if you're working on any aspects of next book, or next project. The other one is it's been six years. Now, it since since Trump, but six years of processing, we use the word deconstructing, although, although that's don't have to like asking questions of what is the faith that grants life? What does faith family look like? Are there broad strokes to paint of of what rhythm looks like today in a manner that could be different than it was seven years ago?

Speaker 2  56:26  
Yeah, I think currently, I would say that on the outside faith looks a lot the same in the sense of still going to church every Sunday. But on the inside, quite a bit has changed. And, in fact, had you asked me this question, two or three months ago, I would not have been going to church every Sunday. So it took us a while to once we got back to North Carolina to return to church. And part of that was because because of the machine of church. Yeah. Because there are questions and things that we wrap up in our identity and our face that I think is important to to put under scrutiny. Every so often in the same way that we go to therapy, or we go to a doctor, like let's scrutinise what our spiritual health is? And is it where we want it to be? And, like you say, is, is what we're doing and how we're going about this bringing life or not? Yeah, it took us a little while to make it back. And it took us some conversations with that same pastor, who is just a wonderful human being and who I can say, hey, I don't agree with this theologically. And instead of saying, well, then you're not a Christian, or well, then like, you can't come here or you don't belong here. He's saying, Tell me more. Tell me why. And then not looking at me any differently because we hold different theological views. And I've had a lot of people look at me differently. Because I hold a different theological view, and say, you're no longer welcome to the space because of it. So to have that is a gift. And I know not everyone has that.

Rohadi  58:35  
Would it be fair to say that in the space that you and your family and your partner in it's still figuring it out?

Gena Thomas  58:44  
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Rohadi  58:48  
Does that give you a sense of relief? Or is that a sense of stress?

Speaker 2  58:58  
I think that's a great question. ideologically. I would like to say that it's always relief. But realistically, it's sometimes stressful. And the reason I would say that stressful most is because I don't necessarily mind I like I'd like now being an occupying the space of faith where I'm no longer looking for all the answers, and I'm no longer I guess I just say like idolising answers, because I think I did that for a long time. I think I was formed to do that for a long time. However, when it comes to teaching kids about what faith is there's definitely a part of me that fears. Okay, when they go to church, are we going to have to like,

Rohadi  59:54  
yeah, debrief. Yeah. What

Speaker 2  59:57  
was said are the different theological aspects that we You don't agree with? And what is that going to look like?

Rohadi  1:00:04  
Yeah, so that's gonna happen. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's trail off our wonderful conversation here with possibilities like what is what is as a writer? What does the next creative venture look like for you? Or what does especially in the midst of COVID. But what has your craft look like? What are you cultivating? Now? What do you side hustling? Now? Obviously, it's not sweaters with power pie. That's like, fourth time. This is good. It's really good to put it to the test markets not.

Speaker 2  1:00:49  
So currently, I have been, I should say, working on a book about God's abundance. Yeah. And so essentially, this book has now taken three different shapes. Which is kind of funny because I, I heard like prior to, you know, this time in my life, I heard writers talk about books kind of race shifting and reforming and stuff. And if you've never had that experience, and the last two books that I wrote,

Rohadi  1:01:19  
Oh, really?

Unknown Speaker  1:01:20  
No, Lucky. Not in this not.

Rohadi  1:01:23  
Great. Thank goodness. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 2  1:01:26  
And so, yeah, so it's just it's interesting, because when I first started writing the book, it really was. But it's very theological. Obviously, you can tell in this conversation, I'm very theological, theologically minded. So it's juxtaposing this prosperity scarcity framework that we kind of all live and work out of, against this abundance framework that I think God kind of lays out for us. And so again, like juxtaposing the table, that Abraham sets in Genesis 18, to the table that Jesus sets, right before he dies, and just kind of seeing the difference between how we work, right, and how like God wants us to be and how he how I should say, he, but I like to say she to now and they, how God liberates us to experience a table that we've never even fully comprehended. However, what's interesting about all of this is there was this moment where I had to say, I'm not going to fit fits my writing life into the scarcity prosperity framework, just to get this book on abundance published. What do you mean? Because scarcity, prosperity kind of tells us, you have to have all these things, right? Like, you need to sell more books, you need to have a bigger platform, you need to do all this stuff. Which is what that framework tells us all the time, right, you need to be better, you need to be bigger, you need to be all this, all these things, bolder, whatever, you need to be wider, right? Like, all the stuff, you need to be more male. So there's this again, that like hierarchy of, of everything kind of fits into this framework. And I truly believe that if we operate in this framework, one way or another, we operate in violence. And I feel like abundance is a framework that allows us to be what what Paulo Ferreira was talking about, right? Like, we can all be authentic humans and spur each other on to be more authentic humans only in abundance, not if we're always seeking the next high, or the next big thing or the next whatever. And so I had, I was looking for an agent at the time, this was a while ago. And they're like, well, your platform needs to be bigger. This is a really cool, the sounds cool, but you need to have a bigger platform and all this stuff. Right? So there, there came this moment where I was just like, Nope, I'm not gonna listen to these voices, not gonna do this just to like, publish this book. However, the reality is that as a writer, trying to make it in a certain, you know, to to be able to be at a place where to write another book. And as you know, being a progressive, right Christian Right, like there's this whole realm of like conservative Christian publishing world that is a lot bigger than the progressive Christian publishing world, I think. So. All that to say I'm, I'm working through new shapes of this and trying to trying to believe it and live it out as I write about it.

Rohadi  1:04:58  
Well, Gena, thanks so much for for sharing your wisdom and for granting us some some deep perspective around power around your story in your journey of processing faith and into new ways of processing faith. You also drew us into your book separated by the border and, and your the narratives, all the different narratives that you pulled us into and also learning aspects around foster care and adoption. I'm so grateful that you were able to spend time and land your words on the podcast