Rohadi 0:06 What was that? Can you get with that vibe? That's a new intro. Jesse Peters, y'all. Season Seven. Welcome Friends. Faith in a fresh Vibe podcast. I am your host Rohadi, coming at you from Treaty seven lands in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. New season, summer season. I'm glad that you are here. You're going to love what's coming up. In this episode, I intro my book and I have my friend come through to interview me. So it's not just me talking. Gena Thomas, thank you so much for being who you are and for interviewing this season. Well, we have authors, we have pastors, we have thinkers, we have dreamers. We have all of that jazz. Jonny Rashid, Pastor, author now to Jesus takes aside from the same press as when we belong my book. Mandy Capehart comes through y'all with well, conversation about grief and trauma. Miss Marie, from the eastern seaboard who is now an Associate Minister, we talk about black deconstruction. Well, she doesn't call it that, but stay tuned for that episode. Miss Sharifa Stevens y'all coming at you. We have a delightful conversation of the prophetic voice. Trey Ferguson. That's pastor Trey to y'all. And then my friend Marla Taviano. She has authored a number of books and we're going to talk about farts and wholehearted faith. And last but not least, Gena Thomas comes through. We'll share her story her book as well. But in this episode, we kick things off with Gena taken over the show. So that's season seven. Stay tuned, download it, rate it, visit me online, find me wherever your podcasts are sold. And on social media at ro Hattie, or at ro Hattie dot nag Azhar, we talk about my latest book that came out in the middle of June when we belong in this episode, it's a little bit of a get to know me. So if you've been dying to know the inside scoop of how the book came together, and a little bit about me, well, that's what this episode is about. Then, after this short episode, we launch into the normal rhythm of about an hour long episodes with each one of my guests. So I'm very fortunate that they would all come through I will show you and give you the show notes of where you can find each of these voices. I tried to bring in voices you've never heard and some that you have to offer up the possibilities that our faith matters. And not only matters but makes sense in a modern world. So faith in the fresh vibe. I welcome you. Let's get to listening. Gena Thomas 3:34 Faith and fresh vibe with me. Your hosts, Rohadi. Nope. My name is Gena. And I want to ask him some questions. Because he just wrote a book coming out, hopefully, around the same time this guy, this version of the podcast is coming out. And I wanted to ask him a couple of questions because I sincerely feel like this book, which is called when we belong. Sincerely, this book is a beautiful version of what Christianity can be. And I do hope that Rohadi 4:20 everyone will read it. Millions. Gena Thomas 4:22 Yeah, and especially those who are listening to this podcast, right? Rohadi 4:26 Not millions. But But yeah. Gena Thomas 4:31 And I just I wanted to share first off before we jump into some of my questions, just that this was a book that I had the honour of endorsing. And my endorsement is this from deconstruction to atonement theory. to institutionalisation. Rohatgi pesto orally and prophetically leads the reader through the systemic and systematic barriers of holistic belonging, which he knows intimately with sights set on a reverberating anxious yet present hope. He shows us that true belonging can only come from inclusive belonging, where Christ permitted radical mutuality of LGBTQ ia bipoc, disabled and women can offer the prophetic imagination the church so glaringly needs today. I'm deeply grateful for this book and hopeful for the, for the church that listens. For honey, I just want to ask you a couple of questions, before getting into some quotes that I pulled from the book. But I wanted to find out, as as a fellow writer, I feel like every book that we write is different than you know, the analogy is often giving birth. And I think there's so much that happens in the gestation period of writing a book. And I wanted to find out from you, kind of what was distinct during this period for you? And why did it feel important to give to breathe life into this book? Rohadi 6:15 Oh, that's a good question. First off, Gena, thanks so much for inviting me on my podcast. Secondly, that was a wonderful summary. You're the only one who pulled out the atonement pieces, which I thought was so crucial to make sense of a Christian faith that we need. Use the word answer loosely. But we need an explanation as to why, why why the cross? We just came through Easter. Yeah, why not all the blood and gore and the satiating of rage. And so thank you for a summary that is a better reflection than a summary, I can write about my own book. Thanks. That's such a good question. And yeah, you know it and writers know it, any Creator knows it of the iterations that your project goes through. And now you're knowing it a little bit more of a book that shifts and shifts and shifts just wasn't the single thing that you Oh, I have a wicked idea. And it didn't just get crushed, you know, it just got crushed. And this book, do not get crushed. But it went through so many iterations, so many iterations, and some of them will, all of them were good, because they create a better book. And, and one that's for more people. This original idea, oh, so um, this won't make sense. Because we're on radio, it's radio real heavy. But this is a notebook I'm holding up. And on it, it says remarkable on it. And it's an old notebook, I probably don't have a date in it. But I'm now using it for something else. But I used to have a different notebook for each different book project. And this was for an idea I had, which was called remarkable on the fringe. I already had the title, right. And it was about a time in my life that I was going through huge upheaval. And I was struck by different people. But it was probably more about my own self, of course. But these people who were defying the odds, and I wanted to write a story about these people who were remarkable yet everyone else, and especially the church would call them to last. Little did I know, that's probably as I alluded to a story about myself. So why did I write this book is, as I was writing it, I realised this is this is for me. And I'm writing to people like me as well. Originally, it wasn't like that. Originally, I'd written a book. So in in when we belong, I talked about the different ways to belong. So I have the different doors, I was processing that metaphor of option one, option two, you know, stay in your church, go find another one, leave entirely sticking ethnic churches. That's what it typically looks like, broadly speaking. And that was what the book was around, centred around, it was actually a way to write because I've come out of the church planting world and the missional church and all like, that was kind of my expertise for years. I stuck with that. And I was like, I'm gonna write a church about a book about belonging in the church for leaders to apply and to help answer questions of why churches are bleeding. So that was 20 I don't even know 1718 After Thrive was done. So 2018, But little did I know it the when we belong was going to become closer to you. This vague idea had about remarkable on the fringe, and never clued in until I was done when we belong, that the ideas of being of these remarkable people to find the odds and searching for belonging, that was basically the book. And so I wrote it for people like me, who have an in Canada, which would be different than a lot of Metro places in the US. There's not a lot of multi ethnic options, there's probably, I would say, There is none in the city I'm in. But that's not true. There might be a couple, but truly multi ethnic, right, not just in name, only Oren congregation only in leadership and denomination in history and so forth. Of course, I've never fit in anywhere I go. And so what were the possibilities and to expand it beyond just multi ethnic folks to expand it to anyone who has been pushed to the margins because of their body or because of something they believe? And and so that was a new iteration at the start of the book, maybe it was marketing related to think of, how can I expand this, some more people would resonate, right. And then the language around deconstruction came in way late as well, was not in the first drafts. I added deconstruction, because it's hot now. But it also gives language to what so many people are doing when you question and realise that the things you believe in no longer apply? Yeah, what do you have left? Well, you need a process. And and too many folks I know are leaving it all behind. And I want to cry out and be like, you don't have to do that. Like there's so much Christianity outside of this North American, right, white centred European centred ideas of who Jesus is. Right? Is there a possibility? There are better ways beyond that? And so that's what the book explores. And there are and it's hard work. Like, it's that much you mute you, ality that you have spoken to about where does deeper relationship lie? That's not easy. Yeah, that's not easy. But I think that that's where the answers are, in terms of growing in deeper community, and in faith. How would Gena Thomas 12:18 you say that you're, you're mentioning, you know, being in church planting and missional. Church? And how does all of that lead you to these ideas of belonging and and writing this book? How did that all influence where you landed on with this? Rohadi 12:37 I probably can't pinpoint exactly how that influenced because it was just another thing that I realised and I wrote about this in the book that, oh, if we just solved the problem, a mission, that somehow belonging would be solved in churches, but it doesn't address the deeper issues of power, just like, like you mentioned, on our podcasts, power, and specifically power around white supremacy, and patriarchy. missional church doesn't like it all the hot Emergent Church, whatever, doesn't answer those questions. It's still a white male led movement. So it does not have the competency and capacity to think otherwise. And the same thing with church planting, I wouldn't use that term anymore. And we don't need the wealthiest and it's the wealthiest churches, which are the whitest churches have the most money to go and do church planting, which in a lot of respects, and many are trying to think of new ways, which is good, is an exercise in colonisation. So the reason why so many other leaders and traditions don't church plant is because we're not very good colonisers that's just not in our DNA. That's why the black church isn't going well. I can't speak for the black church. But for different traditions, their proximity to whiteness, often dictates and wealth, which is the same in many respects often dictates how well you are at colonising people. So I feel like how I could never get a leg up again in this world, because it's white male dominated and like I had expertise there, but it didn't matter. It forced me to look deeper. And I realised I'm not talking to leaders or pastors or church planners. This is a book for folks searching for meaning and ultimately, wholeness and belonging. There's a pathway to that liberation, and I want to at least illuminate pieces of it. So yeah, I think it was the 10 years of not getting anywhere and realising Oh, there's some deeper answers as to Why let's look into that. Yeah, so decolonizing your faith will set you down that road. Gena Thomas 15:07 Yeah. Yeah. You talk about how you're dismayed. Right by how many churches Rohadi 15:15 were dismayed at many things. Yeah. What does that mean? Enneagram dismayed, I don't know. Gena Thomas 15:25 You're not alone by that, for sure. You say this. I am, however, dismayed by how many churches define themselves by the barriers they preserve, over the freedom they should announce. It's not a freedom tainted by the aspirations of Western individualism. Rather, it is a promise dream, where we can live out our whole and authentic selves, get true belonging and churches seems out of reach even for the insiders, beliefs, ideas, opinions, are called into question as they become obstacles preventing full belonging and human flourish meant and those barriers, you have those barriers you have experienced quite a bit yourself. Rohadi 16:09 I was just thinking today that I don't get invited to a lot of things because there's often been like, people know that I'll call out there's a prophetic voice that yeah, I will use and the wishes wide, like for a lot of speaking gigs in Canada is small compared to the US. Like, everyone kind of knows everyone, but most of my gigs of this world come from the Catholics. The Catholics are always inviting me to things because they don't know me. They only know the work, and which is odd. Many respects so anyways, that's yeah, you know, I'm being when you were sharing just earlier about something about the maleness of things. What was it? More male, more? More white? Like? Yeah, yeah. And I was thinking of the male part. I was like, you know, oh, like, you know, I can punch my wall and rage. And then you said something connected to violence. I was like, joking around, oh, I can be more male and hit things. And it's like, yeah, but the formation around violence and stuff like that. So where am I going? Patriarchy, benefits me. So I actually don't feel because I'm so far away from denominations. I don't feel the ire of anything. And as a man, I don't face a lot of the prejudice in churches, I will never belong in denominations. I might consult with them. Who knows where life will take me. But because my gifts are to lead to be CEO, or president or lead or whatever, I'll never be permitted space. And in those places, and I've come to terms with that, usually. Yeah. Yeah. But like the belonging pieces is, I really don't care. I don't care what they are selling. I'll call it out. But yeah, it's, I benefit on one hand, though, from the patriarchy side. And I don't know what it means to just like, not have opportunity, because of my gender. Yeah, I in many respects, that's a bigger obstacle, depending on your space. And yeah, I've come to terms with the white supremacy side. It's just never gonna help me here. Gena Thomas 18:44 Well, one, one of the things that I found so interesting about your book, is that your prophetic voice I mean, I, I feel like, I've known that voice from social media, right? And like how we connect Rohadi 19:02 pithy, Instagram and Twitter quotes? Gena Thomas 19:04 Yes. Yeah. So that that prophetic voice is there. And I think what's fascinating to me about your book is that your pastoral voice comes out to and typically, those two things aren't in the same person. And, and I found that just beautifully balanced in the sense of calling out what needs to be called out and being pastoral in ways that I think most prophetic voices are not. Rohadi 19:41 Thanks. I appreciate I've never heard that before. I've never won an award for being a good pastor. I don't think I ever will. I don't do it full time. I never have either. Yeah, so I definitely wear different kinds of pastoral pants than average But but it's but I know what it means to call things out. And that's easy. Yeah, it's harder to call into better. And I suck at that too. Like, I'm not good at that either. But I'm learning and and I do feel however, when others are being pressed against their ability or Cape capability of living out there for the fullness of who God has made them to be, when they're being pressed down, subjugated by institutions or powers that shouldn't be doing that should know better. Yeah, I'll have something to say. And luckily, and for the quote that you shared, luckily, there's a better way that you don't have to give up pieces of yourself just for a taste of belonging, that there are options up beyond that, where you don't have to just put up with it a little longer, right? That better is out there. And even those who don't really think and so the people who are on the inside, there are forces and powers that are preventing you from living out the fullness of even if you think you belong, right, like in that Trump church, right? Like you mean to tell me that you the deeper level of your humanity is not revealed as you learn to empathise with the marginalised, right? Or is it actually pulling against or, or withholding aspects of your humanity? By forcing you to look at the other with disdain? Yeah, come on, give me a break. Gena Thomas 21:43 Yeah, that's, that's so good. And so, personally, I have I have been involved in different spaces where I think most people have where you end up getting kicked out for one reason or another, right? And it's kind of like, belonging always seems to come at a cost. And that cost typically, is what you're saying, our authentic selves? And I think that your book speaks to this. Maybe it's not necessarily new, but it's, it feels different, this different way of understanding what belonging can be, because we've had it in this box for so long. And you're like, wait, we don't have to be in this box. We can. Yeah, open it up more. Yeah. And I think I just I really appreciate I'm going to be giving it to a lot of my friends. Because the the sense that belonging can actually happen. without costing our authentic selves, feels almost impossible. But when I read your book, like, No, this really is possible. And so what you're saying about, you know, not always necessarily having the pastoral frame of being better, I do think that your book really shows a path forward in a way that I haven't seen. And I'm grateful for. So Rohadi 23:14 thank you so much for your words, I really appreciate that. It really resonates and affirms me, especially as someone who's not connected into a nice place or space or denomination. To to hear that. Because that's what I set out to do. Yeah. Like I wrote this book for that reason. Yeah. And like yay, in it so important and valuable to me to hear like, yes. And I know other people like I, they need to read this, too. That's why That's why I wrote this book, because I think it is. But be careful. I don't necessarily think what I'm saying is new. I appeal to different traditions. But there's a reality of I don't think out there right now. The Christian faith in a western context has been laid out with this type of language of the possibilities. That's what is different. So 20 years of me not working with a denomination. Like it produces some different thinking, right? And so hopefully I offered pieces of that. But it also like reclaims at the same time as a subtitle, it reclaims these pieces that say, Okay, we could throw everything away, right? But we can hang on to these core aspects in a renewed or reclaimed way. And that's why I pull in atonement. So I pull in Bible, like I pull in these things, and we can think through them in different ways. Yeah, and not only is it okay, but it grads life along this path where Jesus is. Yeah, he was, by the way on the margins, too. Yes. So, love it. Thanks for your words. Oh, good. Gena Thomas 24:59 Yeah, so good. Okay, I wanted to, to point out this idea of terms and conditions because I found it so interesting. I know earlier you said that you didn't really set out to write about whiteness, but it kind of happens, which, you know, hopefully there will be a day where they won't have to happen, right? But you say whiteness is like the terms and conditions we never read yet must approve for social participation. Click Accept and figure it out as you go. Even if we read the terms we can't object. found that to be I might have tweeted, messaged you about that one? I'm not sure I said you separately. did. Yeah, you did. You did. Yeah. But that just really stuck out to me, and I think was a good I think about whiteness a lot. But there are definitely ways in which I need to think more deeply about the default. That is white culture. And I think this really sums it up in, you know, two sentences in a way that is palpable. And then I just wanted to go down to how later on you re, you come back to this term, when you're talking about your great grandma. And you say that she never accepted the full Terms and Conditions. Having never learned how to speak English, despite 80 years in the country. I can't imagine that it was easy for her, but I consider it a form of resistance that she employed. And I just, yeah, I just would love to hear more of your thoughts on that. And I just loved how you gave this example of what it is or gave this idea and then gave us the example of the embodied idea. Oh, Rohadi 26:52 yeah. And I've tried to think where I feel like I heard the terms and conditions. But the metaphor really worked for the book, and to call it back and which I think was a late addition to think of Wait a minute, like I can never have a conversation with great grandma had no concept what she was saying she was always thrilled to see me was was deaf, by the time I came around, but always would tow seaweed over the oven or the stove, and was usually watching f1 car race. I wish I could have asked her what it meant to not learn a lick of English. She probably understood most of it, but never spoke back. Whether that was her exercise and resistance, I don't know. And that's part of our of of the story. And I allude to it, especially in my story with my grandpa who passed away just before the manuscript was done. And I tried intentionally to get more of his thoughts stories picture of his time in the tournament. So I was never able to get an answer from grandpa. In fact, he responded pretty terse. And a terse way to me of don't ask that. And it was odd for me to try to talk to grandpa about anything. That's just like the jab. I don't know if it's a Japanese thing, but and for great grandma never can never communicate with her. But I don't know if it was resistance, pardon me, believes that. It must have been how well it's and why else. And it was her part of her character, and then part of her character embedded into me. So that's a lingering question as to in what manner that has applied or in what manner it was. But it's but it's a story woven through a trauma and unknowns and, and questions that may never have answers I will never get answers to. Gena Thomas 29:16 Yeah, thank you for sharing that I found so much of the story about your family just really beautiful. And I know that's not easy to share. So Rohadi 29:29 yeah, and we were talking beforehand. Now it's like, I don't know who I've shared any of these things with and everyone gets to read them for the low price of 17. It's like kind of wild. Like I don't know what how I feel that yet because I haven't thought about its ramifications. But like yeah, it's and so many stories are filled with that trauma and, and but thanks for asking. Yeah, it's in the midst. There's these possibilities and glimpses of Gena Thomas 29:59 it Yeah, just that concept of, you know, that rejection of assimilation that opened the way and opens the way for true belonging, I think is, Rohadi 30:13 it's there like somewhere. Yeah. Like, that's the possibility, right? Because I wonder if it's skipped from great grandma, it was just, Oh, why don't you ever learn English? And it may have skipped generations, like, and I'm still learning my own story and the stories of my family like, I have a lot to do with trying to pull into ethnicity, especially into India. But like, it has skipped my grandpa, what it means to assimilate what it means for me to assimilate. My, my mom. Yeah. And then to me to now be like, wait a minute, let's reclaim these pieces. Like, what? Where's the resistance? Where's? And? Yeah, I mean, don't wait too long, because some of those answers I'll never find. But it's still a good journey, I guess. Gena Thomas 31:02 Yeah. And it's interesting how the, how that familial journey kind of parallels your spiritual journey, like there's, there's beauty in that. Rohadi 31:14 I didn't do that on purpose. That's, I have to think about that. Gena Thomas 31:20 It's good. Love it. Okay, so one more question, then I'll leave you alone. This was a quote about deconstruction, you say without creating an absolute, I offer the starting definition in the bid toward reclamation, deconstruction is a pathway that leads to liberation from all that seeks to make us less whole. And I love that perception of what deconstruction can be, because what I think that you're doing here, and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, but, you know, it seems like there's these like, two big camps of what deconstruction is. One is, deconstruction is everything I need it to be. And it's going to lead me completely away from Christ, which for some people, like I don't, I don't necessarily want to make judgement on what needs to happen in some people's lives. On the other side, it's, you know, some of the voices from my own Christianity and past a saying, deconstruction is this awful evil thing that leads people fully away from Christ? And I think, here you're offering this like, different path that I don't hear a lot of people offering even though I feel a lot of need for it. But I don't hear a lot of people offering this I don't know if that's fair to say, in your own thoughts. Rohadi 32:56 I think the connection of asking questions and pulling away from things that seek to make you less whole adding language to that, so you can name it, that has not been done as much. There are, of course, traditions beyond me. Black church tradition in America, now emerging indigenous traditions, and many orthodox traditions that have always had a place of resistance and a posture against these powers powers again, pressing against us. Yeah, I tried to pull the language in to make sense where where folks are at. And we don't need to use the term deconstruction. It the scope, the linear scope that you gave us, there is just that it's a linear, you know, portrayal? It's not really like that it's more like 4d chess or so there are, I think, bipoc writers and leaders who are certainly asking, which is part of my, my questioning of a lot of deconstruction thought leaders right now. It's like, man, you got to deal with your white supremacy before you can be pointing to the possibilities of, of wholeness. But that's what it all boils down to. We don't need deconstruction itself the language to describe Hey, the problem here is I have been reduced from living out the fullness of my humanity. And so how can I relocate a better way and and build slowly it's that it's that reciprocity and relationship, that depth? Like give me more than that. I don't care of its size and scope. But if we can capture that within any community, not even just we don't have to call it church, but if we can capture that love for one another. Yeah. Then, what else? What else do we need? Yeah. So the language I don't think is important if you want to use the deconstruction language I do, obviously. But the people who fear it are not being honest to the the ways that they've been made less whole. And they're not being honest to the stories of those who have the bravery to ask the questions and find the deeper possibility. So those are good questions. And I think maybe Gena Thomas 35:31 not even being honest with themselves about their own deconstruction that they did to get to where they are, because I think, in some form or another, faith requires us to deconstruct like, Rohadi 35:45 full circle though its power, Gena Thomas 35:47 right? Yeah, that's right. That's absolutely key. Don't Rohadi 35:50 touch your deconstruct, because you don't want to a lose the power or poke the power. Gena Thomas 35:55 That's good. Yeah. Rohadi 35:58 That's good. Poke the power, is that better than power pie? Gena Thomas 36:04 I think it just needs to be a shirt of all of these phrases, just like five phrases in a row about power. All with Peace, Power, pie book, The Power. Well, thank you very much for sharing a little bit more about your heart in this book. And I'm just again, I'm so grateful for those of us who get to read it and learn from you in your pastoral and prophetic voice. I'm very grateful. Rohadi 36:31 Thanks, Gena. I really appreciate the time you've put in to reflect both in the endorsement that you gave but also to to just the brainpower that it would take to formulate just a couple of questions around this. I have deep gratitude for that. So thank you. Appreciate you