Rohadi 0:01 Faith in a Fresh Vibe podcast. This is the final part of a three part series in Season six, which is a season on deconstruction. My guest is Drew Brown. Singer songwriter find them in the show notes. This one I didn't split up into two. So it's a longer one hour episode that concludes our conversation. We asked what do you keep? What do you trash? And what do you claim when it comes to deconstruction enjoy? We include here Drew Brown on this contest of revealing all the pieces of deconstruction. We entered this exercise in an attempt to figure out what does deconstruction look like but pull in the voices from the margins? Yeah, this is the space. I don't know, it wasn't always like this. But you know, now that it's starting to get hot. Again, you've heard us complain about this. It's dominated by white voices. Some folks have done great work. But when it comes to the work of deconstruction, the argument is white folks can only take you so far. I'm not not a knock to my white homies. Not a knock. There's three pieces of deconstruction, three pieces of dealing with white supremacy. And you're either one of the three, I don't know if this is a hard rule. You can either dismantle you can either decolonize out of or you can reclaim and white folks, all y'all can do is dismantle because you can't escape the clutches of whiteness. And no matter how hard you try, whiteness will always afford you privilege. So you can't decolonize out of something that you are always afforded. But you can use that power to dismantle. So I suppose black and other people of colour can dismantle to, when you have a little piece little glimpse of power. And I'm saying, I don't understand. We can decolonize away from the powers and principalities that are white supremacy and whiteness, but then you need something to go back to that could be a reclamation of, of ethnic identity must, must include that. But also I think because where we are situated on this land, it is reclamation or return a decolonizing unto Indigenous perspectives, indigenous ways being an indigenous spirituality, which the third one is just that reclamation, indigenous peoples do not decolonize out of anything they reclaim what once was or what is where are we going to go in this last episode here. We're going to shimmy and shake our way through the question of deconstruction. We're going to do a rapid fire where we're going to throw out a couple of three, what we what we keep what we trash, and what we reclaim. I love that. And we'll just toss it out. And you'll hit it give us all the gems and then then I'll try to follow up and all the answers. People will be writing books and speeches about when we know they won't. Yeah, they will. Maybe how many words do you think they give out the spoken word continent all day? Drew Brown 4:07 Every day one. Rohadi 4:10 That's right. Best Rock Album. Remember that story? Hey, look, right. Yeah, season two of season three. I can't remember. No. Look it up the earlier episodes with Drew Brown from a couple seasons ago. He tells that story. Greasy he's still waiting for that check. Drew Brown 4:32 And I am baby, come on. Rohadi 4:34 We also want to talk about what is healthy and unhealthy deconstruction look like. I remember my first church plant for some reason. Maybe it was me. For some reason, we attracted a lot of people who were still dealing with their hurts of old church experiences and they brought their hurts into my church plant. And it was just a place where with a bunch of hurt people, which is is very different than where it is. Now, with people actively deconstructing, they're in a better place of asking tough questions. But they're not kind of spewing all their unhealth onto everyone. I don't know if that's very pastoral with me to say, whatever. Well, it's good man. You know what I'm talking about, you know, that kind of community like, have you been in spaces? Like yes, Drew Brown 5:26 yeah, I I've seen that before, where there's a group of people who are deconstructing and going through sort of working through their church trauma, I Rohadi 5:35 wouldn't even name it as deconstruction. Right? Yeah, that's Drew Brown 5:38 right. You know, there's going through trauma. And as they go through their trauma, they actually traumatise other people. Just keeps on, you know, it's like, it's like, Rohadi 5:48 So there are healthy and unhealthy ways to roll through deconstruction, I think, I think that we need to engage these questions, because ultimately, when we pull back the layers, when we consider why we deconstruct, I think it has to do with belonging in that something is preventing us from true belonging. And something is detracting from us living out the fullness of who God has made us to be. And we, when we figure out that there's something incongruent, or obstacles in the way of whatever journey we're on in life, that alerts us that something ain't right. And the alert or the catalyst, I think, is a realisation. We don't belong. Some piece could be the whole thing, that some piece, we don't belong here. Have you had that sense before? criss crossing communities, like when it came down? If you did the introspective work that you realise Oh, like, this isn't a question of fundamental belonging for me. Drew Brown 6:59 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I unfortunately, have always kind of felt like an outsider in, in church spaces and church contexts. And pretty much every church space I've ever been in, with the exception of maybe one. And all through my life, I've always felt like an outsider. I always feel like I've been on the fringes even though, like, there was no reason to label myself that way. externally. Generally speaking, for white shirts, I guess, but. And it wasn't just because, you know, I'm an artist, and I am so special. I'm so different. It wasn't like that. Because I was surrounded by other artists who were better than me, you know, or worse than me where it gets wet, you know, so it wasn't that. It was something was, like, there was something internally that I was like, I don't fit in, or I don't agree, or I don't. And not that I had reasons to like, I remember being a kid and thinking like, mission trips, just don't feel right to me if it was like, invasion of some kind, but didn't have the language or the verbiage or even the reasoning really to, to think that way. But for some reason, it felt weird and weird. And so, right. And so I was always kind of like, No, I'm good. No, I'm good. I'm not gonna, you know, partaking that or, you know, I'm going to raise funds for that. I just felt weird to me. So it was always like an outsider, especially obviously, when I went through my deconstructing and, and try to sort of still go to church in that space. Even more so because I was, you know, the heathen or that's the way I labelled myself on the heathen. I believe and you know, Justice oh my gosh, Rohadi 8:48 Don't use that word. Um, justice. Next is going to be critical race theory. No. Lord have mercy. Do you know how many people critical race theory kills every year? Drew Brown 9:09 To me to count brother to me the cap Rohadi 9:18 was this predominantly a, an issue of race? Drew Brown 9:24 In some places, yeah. But overall, generally, no, it was definitely deepen that. Like even even black church. I felt like I didn't quite fit it in. I mean, that there was a bunch of different reasons there because I was I was too white for black church because I listened to rock music at that point in time. That was sort of not the norm. We're now you find like, many people of colour, listen to everything. And when I have friends who listened to the classical jazz, whatever, whatever. Yeah, but back in the day, you're a teenager. You weren't listening to Pearl Jam. Oh, Like you're listening to me Rohadi 10:01 in the 90s You couldn't listen to when were your teenager in the night. couldn't listen to Pearl Jam. Drew Brown 10:10 No, no, no, no, no, no. It was like it was like Josie and Callie one. Yeah. And that was it right in Giorgio. Right. Exactly. Rohadi 10:23 I mean all the hits but still. Jam is yeah was a bigger deal to back then. Yeah. Drew Brown 10:31 Yeah. Where's where's what's what's going on? It wasn't to everything the guy was like, guys a big jazz had in high school I loved loved rock, love, hip hop. This is the new hip hop that's coming up rest of development and just things that had you know, a bit more bit more headspace like Public Enemy. Love that stuff, but also loved. My rock also loved my jazz also. So that was I was sort of like, not that it wasn't cool. It was kind of you do what you listen to what? Oh, that's weird. But even that wasn't as much of a priority makes its music, who freakin cares? Rohadi 11:07 Yeah, but it was a factor in othering you Drew Brown 11:12 knee right? Right. So you have all these other things and then you have like, you know that I'm a huge music nerd that like a lot for whiteboard music. We create a rock and roll man. Sorry. Rohadi 11:33 No, get it out. Drew Brown 11:36 It's like therapy today. Rohadi 11:38 It's been therapy every podcast while the free kind so not very good therapy. So a lot of it has to do with your laughing like, you rely on all the not very good kind. So many of us do. This like social media has become not very good therapy. Drew Brown 12:01 Yeah. Ain't that the truth? That the truth Rohadi 12:04 Isn't that a country song. Anyway. So a lot of it had to do. Like I harp on race and ethnicity quite a bit. But when when I hear your story on belonging, this is a lot to do with ideas and and artistic expression and theological opinions. Yeah, these are things that were separating you. Yeah. Drew Brown 12:28 Which is, which is weird. It's strange. It's yeah, like, yeah, I just like imagine being in a Pentecostal, no knee cares, MAN service and, you know, everybody's raising their hands and speaking in tongues, and I'm kind of like, cool. I'm good here. Hands down on my side, you know, not doing anything. Rohadi 13:02 Weird is the word. What did you feel weird? Totally. Drew Brown 13:06 Especially if I'm the person like leaving the music of that time. And I was going crazy. I'm like, doo, doo doo doo doo doo. It's not because I didn't believe that because I wasn't even I was I was so caught up in the moment. But my version of being caught up look totally different than everybody else. Rohadi 13:23 We've talked about the theological things in the last episode about what othered or what puts you on the outskirts of community. Let's stick with that weird piece though. Because I think that's something that those who are embarking or in or don't even know yet, but you come in to deconstruction, it's the weird moment. Right? That was that initial catalyst. That alert to something right, right. Right. Usually weird is attributed to racist things. For me as I look back all the examples of netlike like over to like, wow, sometimes overt. But these are moments where it was like, I I can't make sense of this entirely. I didn't have all the language of why this was weird. But you know, it's just weird. It was weird. Just I'm sure. Like, every woman in the church can be like, smashing up against patriarchy. Oh, man, should use different language confronting patriarchy, Drew Brown 14:32 smash, but keep going. Rohadi 14:35 That something has left you feeling weird, right? Weird and less than, Drew Brown 14:42 Oh, gosh, there it is. There it is. Rohadi 14:47 If you're embarking on this journey of deconstruction, and you're wondering, do I fit any more one of the things I want to yell out to people who have confronted the things that attempt To make them less whole, and decided the only option is to walk away from it all is to yellow. You don't have to do that. Well, maybe you do. Maybe you do have to escape. But there are options. I want to scream out right? There are options here. There's something worth reclaiming. Because if we talk about people who have been pushed to the margins because of something you believe, because you like the rock and or roll, that Christianity encounters you in that place, because Jesus is a incarnate being, who was that marginalised being that body was marginalised on the margins of Christian faith for the first 300 years to get married in with Rome. That's a marginalised community colonised under the thumb of the Emperor. All those things, we have more in common on the margins with Christianity, then everything that comes out of the centre or through whatever inherited cultural power place, the church tries to speak from today. Any churchman? Yeah, that's it. I want to give you three pieces here. And now we've entered the rapid fire. Oh, geez, I'm ready. Okay, let me change my position here and get ready. I want to ask you for in the place that you're at now, when it comes to deconstruction, okay, here are the three categories. Interacting, we're going to primarily interact with Christianity. I know deconstruction can be into other institutions. But when it comes to Christianity, and the work of deconstruction, Drew Brown, yes. What would you give up? So why would you trash? What would you keep? And then what would you reclaim? You know, like, iterate, make new? Dru Brown, what would you do? What start with trash? What would you trash? Everything? Okay, no, we can't do that. I'm gonna put the canned laughter there as well. Drew Brown 17:24 That's it, I think. I mean, this is this is the lame, lame answer. But I had to give it I'll give everything that's not Christ like, so I'll get rid of patriarchy and racism and sexism and the list goes down. I know. It's kind of like duh, duh, obviously, there isn't. But that would be the first thing to go. Again, that's obvious. The second thing to go, which is a little less obvious, is to have the one person being the lead. Rohadi 18:02 Okay, leadership. Yeah, yeah. Drew Brown 18:05 So that, uh, the idea that I guess for me, like I'm in this is constantly my own story. I'm heavily triggered by like, the mega pastor or the CEOs. Right? That kind of leadership. So I mean, right. And I have no problem with like, you know, someone needs to sort of like, you know, calling the shots what needs to happen? Sure. Somebody to be a shot caller. Great. But for me, I love winter just gonna lead in community somehow. Where's not just the main guy, but its main guy with a bunch of other people around that person. Yeah, I mean, I'll count we might fall on him. Sure. Or her? Whatever. But but they're not leading alone. I think and there's there's tonnes of churches who are doing that kind of thing where it's like a shared leadership model. That's great. That feels healthier to me. I could be totally wrong. I could be totally wrong, but that feels healthier. Rohadi 19:08 You get unhealthy versions of that, but I'm flattening that leader. Oh, Drew Brown 19:12 totally. Yes. Yeah, I think so. Rohadi 19:15 I like that one. Going back to your first one. Would you say Christ Christ like anything that's not Christ like, Drew Brown 19:24 Yeah, who's Christ. But so Christ to me would be the embodiment of would hope, love and justice peace, goodness, mercy, grace. All these traits and attributes that we want to kind of be you want to own ourselves you kind of want it like we want to wear that shirt. You know, we want to put up we want to wear that we want to be that at least I do. That's what keeps me around in Christian circles. In other words, in that I'm out why bother? But like that for me and being someone who represented, sorry, not represented but embodies that. That's what keeps me around. Because I want to be that person. I'm not that person. And so what I was when I say get rid of everything, it's not I mean, get rid of me. But like, let's be super intentional, as flawed people to kind of get rid of that, as you know, to serve. You know, maybe we see that fire doubted out. I think that needs, I'd love to see a church does that because I haven't seen physically my own ions, a church that is intentionally trying to kill the beast, of self, and of money and greed, I should say not money, greed, and then also like race and patriarchy and all that stuff, the stuff that's just like, Oh, my God, racism in churches insane. Yeah. Rohadi 20:48 So someone would would would shoot back? I think maybe, maybe, maybe. And that, why does that have to be a Christian community? Drew Brown 20:58 It doesn't, because it doesn't. But you mentioned at the beginning of the conversation that we are talking in the Christian context, Rohadi 21:04 worth reclaim you. Let me go up the No, you're right. Let me let me come from the side and ask, Have you experienced that level? Like I'm, I'm genuinely curious, that level of community in pursuit of the things that you spoke of hope, love justice, caring for the poor, and so forth like that outside of Christian community? Oh, Drew Brown 21:31 definitely. Yes. My atheist friends are the most Christian friends. I know. I'm not even kidding, by the way. Rohadi 21:40 That I think speaks to how how much the church doesn't have the monopoly on these things. So then what makes Christianity unique? Drew Brown 21:52 I think it's it's. So some of its practices and rituals, I think, are very unique. Not I mean, verbiage wise anyway, I mean, prayer isn't unique to Christianity alone. Singing together isn't necessarily unique to what we do, or to what other practices do. But there is something about like, the gathering the communion piece. That I think I could be wrong. I think those things feel unique to Christianity, Rohadi 22:28 though. And you sort of alluded to this before, those are your convictions. Yeah. I like to Jesus piece. I think that's the unique piece. What else is there? Drew Brown 22:43 What else is there dude? Yeah. Rohadi 22:47 Rapid fire. What are you going to trash? So you said everything? You said leadership? That's a good one. That's a very short list. Unless you try to encompass everything in the halloween bag there. Drew Brown 23:01 Wow. You know, I mean, it's rapid fire. We got to keep moving. Rohadi 23:05 Any other trash? Drew Brown 23:07 But 90% of the music. Rohadi 23:10 So there's Hang on. There's 10%. We're saving that? Drew Brown 23:15 Yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah. All right. All right. All right. Cool. Hey, Norman. Maybe it's less maybe it's only three or 4% when you actually think about the entire, like, geography of the Christian and musical art. So that good point. But let's just say just for the sake of this conversation, yeah. Because a 9010 kind of Yeah, Rohadi 23:32 okay. Okay. Yeah. Keep it coming. Alright, is your list exhausted, exhausted? Drew Brown 23:43 I'm sure there's more but my brain is not functioning as quick as it normally does. Rohadi 23:47 You hit up like the main primary elements of like, 90% of contemporary churches and what they do on Sunday, or now they're situated. Okay, switching it up. What would you keep? Drew Brown 24:02 What would I keep I, again, I really, really connect to the ritual and practice of communion. I love that so much. I really do. I really do. And I didn't when I was a kid, I didn't quite get it because I think when I was a kid, it was so focused on Christ's death Hmm. Right. And that's, that's, that's all it was. And now it's so much bigger and brighter now. It's more than just the death of a good person. Now. It's like, there's a celebration involved is a sense of not how I don't say recommitting, that sounds really Evangelical, but like, sense of kind of like, I used to work in the Anglican Church and I remember I was talking to this amazing woman and she was we're talking to communion and this one particular Sunday we didn't take communion together. And she simply said, hi mister in communion, and I was like, oh, like what what's your reasoning? She's like, It feels like a reset. Like I can come to Jesus and say, Okay, I was a shock. I swear. Rohadi 25:06 I think so. Okay, I was I was Drew Brown 25:09 I was a crappy person this week, and I know what I need to make amends and a lot of places, but now I can come to you and do a really cool spiritual reset with you, Jesus. I'm sorry. You're awesome. Help me to do better. But I was like, what? That's awesome. What a cool practice. Right? It's like, it's like, it's putting the confession and communion together and saying, hey, you know what, man, I'm a fool. Oops. Alright, so I'm gonna take these elements. And hopefully as I celebrate your amazing gift to us, you can help me be better human. Made me better. More like more like you Jesus. Like, yeah, that's. So I've adopted that myself. Like, yeah, man, I suck. Help me Jesus, but I don't know. Anyway. Yeah, I don't I shouldn't say that. But you know what I'm saying. So I love communion. I love it. You're gonna laugh at this, but I love singing Rohadi 26:08 together. I wouldn't laugh at that. Drew Brown 26:10 Like, that is even though I do like my bar gigs and stuff. I always try to find the songs. Not that people just would dance to because that's important, trust me. And not just songs people want to drink to because that's important. But I want them to sing along. I want them to get all their chairs and just yell the songs out. Because that's where the magic happens. Magic. And I certainly I feel the same way. When when you're when when people were actually engaged in song together, celebrating together through songs. That I mean, the church I'm at that doesn't happen at all. But I mean, when it does happen in other spaces and places, matching women. Oh, man. Rohadi 26:55 Yeah, it's beautiful. No, I get that. I mean, as much as someone who is deconstructed all the way to the other end of not doing any music at all. Yeah, yeah. The power of everybody singing together. Drowning each other out. is so rare. Yes. Maybe because we're just not Pentecostal enough. But it's so rare. But when it happens, you know, and it's magic. That's right. Okay, communion. You keep we rollin. What else you keep? Drew Brown 27:33 I can't believe I'm saying this. There was a long time where I didn't believe that church should happen roll. I was like, Yeah, screw it. This is do something else. Service. You mean? I'm sorry. Correct. Yes. Service. Yeah. Now, especially after the pandemic. I guess we're still in it, officially, but you know what I mean, like, after lockdown. I'm like, wow. Yeah, there is something important and special about gathering. I can't believe him saying that. So I think for me, the gathering piece is huge, isn't it? I don't think it needs to happen every week. Now. Rohadi 28:12 There's the deconstruction part. Drew Brown 28:15 Yeah, right. No, me. I'll do that. But I think there is something special about saying, hey, crew, we're getting together. This time. We're gonna do something. It's gonna be great. Let's hang out. Rohadi 28:26 Yeah, and I suck at that. Are you? Are you more of an introvert or extrovert? Drew Brown 28:32 Huge introvert. Dude, huge introvert. Yeah, yeah. Rohadi 28:36 So you are living both your best life but also at the same time, even introverts during this pandemic, chaos. You're in for connection that we all yearn for connection. We do. That's a good keep, man. You got anything else? Any other keeps? Drew Brown 28:52 In terms of rapid fire? It's all I can think of right now. Bang, Rohadi 28:55 bang. Okay. Reclaim. So things that were kind of good, but worth iterating reinventing. bringing back to life. What are the pieces that you might reclaim? Okay, rapid fire. We don't throw it all away. Right. So, yeah. Drew Brown 29:17 I think there was oh, man be that guy. There was a time when the church was actually like, the hub for creative arts. And we lost that. We lost that completely. In my opinion. We've lost that. Some people would say no, we're so creative. Look at our music. Oh, I think I don't know Rohadi 29:35 someone could say that with a straight face. So we use the contemporary North art contemporary church in the West. Drew Brown 29:42 Well, I'm sorry. Yes. Thank you for that. Yes. This amazing, beautiful things happening ever around the world, except for this. Rohadi 29:50 Well, no, that's designed to like Protestants, why they just build or evangelicals in particular, why do you just build a blank box in the suburbs or in a farmer's field? You and me throw up a wooden cross. Maybe that's kind of like the Baptist feels. And that's it. That's your design. Nothing beautiful box. No. Box Moms be you might as well have service in a gigantic fridge box. Drew Brown 30:13 That's right. That's exactly right. I can long for that. To be true of us that we can be people who not just are creative but actually can leverage our creativity for connection or reconnection for spiritual growth or for change. I long for that new expressions Rohadi 30:32 and other people tend to think everyone just connect them by sitting on their butts to listen to someone talk for 3045 minutes. This is sad mad me I'm out. No, thank Drew Brown 30:44 you. The other thing is, yeah, the Church used to be the hub for for creativity. Sure. But also used to be the hub for the community itself. parents used to be the Rohadi 30:58 template some places are kinda like that still. Yes, you're right. Odd. Inner City parish, right. Drew Brown 31:08 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. Man, imagine every church being like that being the neighbourhood parish, oh, my God, I think we could do so much more good stuff. If we who are in leadership can actually like, move our churches into that kind of like mindset. Oh, man, just imagine that which is a shift. We're not just here. It is. It's a huge shift Rohadi 31:35 from grab grandmas cherish what grandma's church was like that in a way but it operated in a manner in a posture of a church that inherited cultural privilege and say in the day to day lives of the people in the neighbourhood, versus a church just postured as a beacon because of the work that they're doing with community for community. That's very, Drew Brown 32:00 baby. Yeah, that's it. So yeah, I think, again, like I'll top my head. Now, just thinking out loud, those are the two main things that I love to sort of reclaim. Rohadi 32:11 Okay, you do me? Drew Brown 32:15 Well, let's start from from from the bottom and start with reclaim. Rohadi 32:19 What do we reclaim beautiful tales, I think, are Reclamation has to do and I will echo you and I'm going to be that guy, a reclamation of the early church. And I hear that so many times from from church leaders or theologians or so forth, but to reclaim the ethic of the Jesus way. So the Matthew five beatitudes Sermon on the Mount, there's a clear ethic to reclaim what that marginalised church and not in terms of white churches today might think that they're being marginalised because they have lost their inherited privilege. So that's being done another you just have an iterated you've been pushed to the margins. We're not being marginalised. We're talking about a marginalised Church, the people being marginalised are a Christ, a Jesus, who has been marginalised, filtered through the lens of black Jesus, not so much that was Jesus black, but the experience of the black body, being oppressed systemically being colonised. It's the church that rises up in that context and reclaims and subverts. Oh, yeah. The world around it that is standing as the critique to Empire rather than embed with it. I want to reclaim that church, I do so poorly and pursue so poorly for sure. But there's so much power in the identity, the DNA of that early church, that it is worth reclaiming. Within that I think is the Jesus piece to reclaim a Jesus who stood with the marginalised for the poor, the widows, the lame, the lepers, the one who extended the table by automatically invited all the prestigious people that come on down, but at the same table, the first invites were given to those who are on the margins as well. Like this is a radical faith that we're supposed to be engaged in and we need to reclaim the radical nature of it. So that's that's the idea of reclaim. I think there's also a reclamation somewhere in this isn't directly tied, although could be wrapped some way. thing with something that we mentioned at the top which is a reclamation of a process of decolonization, but indigenous spirituality. Oh my god a call into a reclamation And of land based cheat teachings. Oh, to try to give us something more than our supremely individualistic and capitalistic social. Yeah, yeah. context information. Drew Brown 35:15 Yes. Oh, dude. Yes. All the s. Rohadi 35:19 Left think that. That's too. Drew Brown 35:23 Yeah, that's great. Oh, man, that's really good. Okay, um, keep, would you keep? Rohadi 35:31 I think I'm like you and the church still needs to gather. And I was a guy who was like, No dude can't do online. Oh, God. And of course, COVID. And a little bit before that switch that. Yeah, but I do believe just like you, I do believe that meaning in person, the touch the feel the smells? The high fives the hugs? Yes, incarnate presence matters as well. We do need to re envision what gathering looks like today. But but we need to gather and I wouldn't give that up. I agree. Not every week. We go every other week, like in three and eight months of the year, maybe we go every other week. But often we've done once a month. Yeah, I don't know what the what's the right amount is, especially if you're living life together, that's different. But to intentionally bring community together from different places and spaces, do that just not as frequently as we're used to? Right? Keep the traditions that were given up. And so keep old traditions hang on to them, but also hold them with an open hand. So example of keep would be teachings of New Testament, keep the Bible for example. But also, don't get me but filter that through the context of of that early church DNA. The marginalised church that can get you into trouble of course, if the if the community affirms stuff that isn't like justice is a bad word, a keep the movement right now. So it's like an iteration of the movement, because it's happened before, but bringing marginalised voices to the centre to lead. So I see a bit of that. So keep that attempt. But we also don't really see great examples of that. All that I would keep, I think we need to also keep it as my last one, keep your identity, but also keep the whole. So we don't lose our identity in church community or in Christ. We're not called all to be the same, rather in our uniqueness and in our gifts. Those pieces matter. And they deserve to be kept in the context of community so that we have all these different parts. It's tricky, because we haven't been formed as community to figure out what it means to be good community when there are differences in our midst when there's diversity, but we're not called into sameness. We're called into Unity oneness in our diversity. So that's where we need to keep our own identity, but in the identity of community as well. Drew Brown 38:40 That's good. All right. Trash, Rohadi 38:43 trash. Throw it away. You're no good to us. I think we need to trash patriarchy. I say that tricky. It's tricky, because it's like, I struggle with trying to figure out how to embody this characteristic in my own church community, and to raise up the women who like what is the right way to not the right way, but to raise up leaders who are not there yet into that kind of space? Trash patriarchy in terms of male headship in church community, but not only that, the formation of the legacy of patriarchy, which shapes and forms the church and how it functions. Trash institutionalism I'm okay with keeping it because I'm not a guy who's like, oh, you know, it's so evil. Whatever. I am outside of it. I don't need it. I may come back into it. Who knows? But you don't need the affirmation of dad's approval in order to go do good things, or be in a community trashed the notion that big equals legit. Oh my god, your church with only 12 People doesn't count because it's 12 and that's not a church trash that idea. I think the reclamation and then the trashing part for the deconstructed church moving forward as being okay, was small. And just it's going to be small forever. It's going to be 20 people at most, and you're going to venture together you might leave because you hate 19 of them, or you don't like them. But then you come back as you realise Oh, that would be a good keep keep good people. Not that you trash bad people, but everything is rooted in people. Yeah, keep keep even if they're, they're hard moments and community the ones who will venture through the hard parts together. Keep keep keep keep keep keep Okay, back to Trash Trash. What was the institution? Trash the notion of big is legit. Trash the old formation that says that there's a clergy lady divide. That if you have to degrees behind you, your voice matters more. So trash that idea. bring more people into the centre with their experiences bring the artists you know, like, how many degrees is that artists have? What was it but they're ministering through their art through their their way that they see the world trash that idea? Trash white supremacy, which virtually every Jewish tradition outside of Orthodox Eastern Orthodox traditions, Ethiopian Orthodox, traditional black institutional church traditions, some reclaimed liberation churches in South America, trash, white supremacy and churches and that is a lot of trash to deal with. So trash the notion of white Eurocentric male theology that has shaped and formed all of us to think and believe what we believe. Hallelujah. I don't know what it's left after that. That's why we're deconstructing but but trash those now. Here's the thing you can reclaim parts of that however, because there's still goodness in them. It's there's still good like, everyone wants to quote a Walter Brueggemann. Or everyone's down with Eugene Peterson or NT right like those those are people who have farmed me for sure. Sure, but trashed the notion that the white male gaze is right White is right and and everyone else can figure out their themselves in their own ethnicities let the Chinese church say you Chinese Church and the black church as black church but over here we church Church, which is really just like you white church and white is right so trash that idea. I mean, I go on. That's a lot of Drew Brown 42:48 that was good, baby. Rohadi 42:51 Well, thank you good, sir. Yeah, let's loop around and and our journey here in blogging, interrogating all things, as the process of deconstructing figuring out what to keep trash and reclaim. What does we've talked about unhealthy ways. And we can still draw in some unhealthy ways. But what does whole health and belonging look like? She we pined for it? What does healthy deconstruction look like? Which, which ultimately, I think leads to, like, let's give the listeners a picture of what healthy community which is sort of the end game looks like to like the practices of these things. It's one thing to just talk about the theory, the knowledge of deconstruction. But what does it tangibly look like in practice in community in the healthy way? Healthy deconstruction and also the result of healthy community? Glimpses because I don't know if there's full answers there. Drew Brown 43:59 Healthy deconstruction, I think. There is something about it. So one thing that I did that was that was helpful for me was when I left the church, I didn't divorce myself from the church. So I still had a lot of friends who were Christians who wanted the same things that I wanted to just as in terms of like, you know, smashing the patriarchy, but they're, like, full on Christ followers. And when the church and led churches and did all the things and so having people like that, because because they're not going to be like, Oh, can you believe you lift your faith? They're gonna be like, That's cool, man. That's awesome. How can I support you? Because they got it, right. They they, they understand the the concept of what is happening. And I think it's okay to go to church or to knock Got a church? I did both. And I remember when I first lost my faith, I was like, I was like, but I'm, I missed the practice of going to church. And so unfortunately, I went to like the local mega church for like a little while, and I was like, Ooh, yet no, I'm out. I stayed out for a while. And I needed that I needed to sort of just be there. And I was there. No judgement, no, no, nothing just gonna be here. Even though I don't agree with the songs that we're singing. I don't agree with the teaching right now. I don't agree with anything. I hate being here. And it was good to be with people. But also it was brutal. And I was okay. I can't do this anymore. For my own health. I think it's okay to do that. I think it's okay. Either way. It's okay to ignore it all totally fine. Because when I did, it was great. And wonderful. I love to have my Sundays back, Hallelujah. Praise Jesus. Having my Sunday and your Saturday nights. Oh, my gosh, she was great. She was great. For me. Great. The fit for the family was amazing. But I think above all else. There is something about deconstructing that people. There's an assumption like that one day going to come back around. I think in theory, that's the whole point. Well, that's, that's the idea. But you don't have to? Well, you have to do you mean that's the idea? If you Rohadi 46:38 want to come back around to what the old thing? No, not Drew Brown 46:41 the old thing to some sort of new version of the Rohadi 46:45 coming around anything. Right. Drew Brown 46:47 And so but that's what some people like they think that's what decontrol has, it's kind of like, No, I'm gonna break this down to build a backup or to build something on that place. Rohadi 46:57 I've heard this, that someone just shared this idea that they went to the church they've been part of for 20 years, they talked to the lead pastor and like, oh, you know what? Yeah, you need to go. You need to go and figure yourself out with the with the lens of didn't say it like this. But you'll be back someday. Drew Brown 47:19 And no, that's not what deconstruction or sorry, at least in my opinion, I don't think has anything to do with, with like, you know, coming back to church building a new outlook on Christianity. No, no, no. Because so much more than just usually we're deconstructing, in my opinion. It's not just about the faith. It's 1000 layers beyond that, right? It's like everything integrity culture. It's Rohadi 47:48 right. Yeah, we didn't even talk about purity culture. Right? It was that in that trash list? What do you mean, it was in your keep list? Drew Brown 47:56 Wow. Rohadi 47:59 You know, we forgot about that one. Yeah, totally Drew Brown 48:01 for that one. But yeah. So for me, I'm like, No, man, the idea is not to come back. The idea is just kind of work through that stuff. Until you feel like you are ready to, I don't know to investigate something else. Or even Rohadi 48:17 you are in the process of deconstructing, but in safe places where you are venturing with like minds, and laser, and you may not leave to a new thing. You may be reclaiming with friends, an old thing. I'm making this up as we go Drew Brown 48:42 on. Is that for me is like, that would be the perfect way to deconstruct Jeremy like that would be for me, personally, that will be the goal Rohadi 48:54 deconstruct with friends. Don't go out it alone. Oh my god, he writes a sweater. Oh my gosh, he constructed friends with friends. Let me write that down. When I Drew Brown 49:03 did it, there was no one going like later down in my process. And they knew the enemy process those tonnes. But like, when I started there was no one going through it. I was like, doing this alone. And that sucks. That was bad for our mental health too. It was a horrible experience on Rohadi 49:18 travel alone on that. She man that's that's hard man. Do you think that you can do a process of deconstruction? Is it healthy? Then to stay in the community that you've been formed, perhaps grew up in? Is it even possible to do so? Drew Brown 49:42 I don't know if it's possible. I mean, that would be imagine a community that would hold you with so much grace and love that they would say, we got you whatever you're going through wherever you go. If you got to fight us if you need to, like like, rip us apart. We are here for you. fully, completely, holistically. For your spiritual like, could you imagine that? Rohadi 50:02 I mean, don't never happen. Yeah, I was gonna like I'm trying and I'm not thinking of any examples never happen. Drew Brown 50:11 That's the only way they can see someone being able to, in a healthy manner stay at the church I grew up and oh my god, Rohadi 50:21 I don't know if you could because eventually you would be faith like that that would eventually. And this is why we can't think of any examples. Eventually, let's say if it was a matter of white supremacy racism, it sounds too much like an All Lives Matter two sides kind of way. Eventually you'll push to shove, and you're gonna have to go. Yeah. But then. And when that happens, let's, you alluded to this admit that part of the process of deconstructing is walking into a pile of grief and loss. Right. Right. This is why should go out with friends. But also, I think that opens the door that a healthy way of deconstructing is that not only confronting hurt, but finding help. And so therapy around how to handle the grief, and the loss is attributed with this work. And now it's like, well, we're gonna find the money for that. But it's like it's a real thing. Just as a way to acknowledge that there's the grief and the loss. It's attributed with construction. You might need help. Yeah. deconstruction scary. Bring a friend. Drew Brown 51:42 Oh, my God, like the dark. Oh, so painful. Rohadi 51:47 Well, it's painful. Yeah. Drew Brown 51:50 There wasn't there was another part to that it was there was another part to this whole thing. I forgot what it was now. Oh, what was it look like community look like? What is? Rohadi 52:01 Yeah, okay. So let's let me preface that then healthy and unhealthy ways of deconstructing you can walk around being hurt and not dealing with those things. Now linger, give us a glimpse. And full disclosure, no community embodies this perfectly, or wholly. What does healthy community look like that deconstructed community like after the fact, if we're not turning all the way around? And coming back into the old thing? What is the Reclaim thing look like? Drew Brown 52:35 I think there would need to be some kind of like they're doing the work of justice and love and mercy within their context. And also nationally, if they if they can, if there's a way to do that. So they are they're trying to figure out the other how racism peace in the sexism piece, you know, they're trying to figure out where their power lies and how they can use it wisely for the community. They are open to people who are actually not even open but they are like, like, they want people who are questioning and who are doubting. I find that people who have those doubts in those questions can really, really help frame or reframe, or continue to reframe a community or in their practices really, really well. This is not coming from a biassed or jaded perspective. They're like this. I don't know about this. This shouldn't work. This is unhealthy. This is they have a really clear perspective. Usually. I think a community that is not afraid of honouring the past but also is not afraid of honouring like the president the future in terms of like, how we do things. Like, like, again, I'm all like, I love Kuna. I love that practice a little bit ritual. There's also other rituals that we can probably either create for ourselves or you know, I mean, I think that's, I think it's healthy. I think that's also good for people who are deconstructing because a lot of rituals and a lot of practices are so triggering. And so offering up and creating some new ones new spiritual practices and rituals would be really could be really healing. Because they're not tied to the old ways. Rohadi 54:29 You'll probably need them pragmatically because, right? What's tied to, and some worth reclaiming, but, of course, sure. What would be do you have like an idea of of what that practice might look like? I mean, you you've, you've suggested in communion. Are there other ones that you have engaged in? Found Life giving Drew Brown 54:51 in my previous church, I would actually take Scripture and chop it up and create like responsive prayers. I Oh. And I started doing that again. I find that that and I would kind of you know, creatively rewrite them a little bit. For sure, yeah. Yeah, I do that. Yeah. Right. I think that has been really just talking to people that's been really really healthy. So she those who kind of like, they don't want to read another frickin Psalm again, that actually like the frickin Psalms. You know, I mean, rather than kind of like like changing it up in a another rewriting the Scripture, but I am rewriting the Scripture. And so reframing it in a way that's grounded in the now in our context in our neighbourhood, and what's happening in our society while still keeping the truth of like, this Creator God who is presence and wants to see like justice roll down. Wants to that wants to see us become people of mercy of grace. Yeah, things like that, I think would be cool. No music at all. Rohadi 56:13 Especially online like, I can't imagine how any church does music online right now. I know many are trying. It's just a still did. It sucks. Yeah, their Drew Brown 56:25 socks man. For like, that's, I'm saying that as someone who's been on both sides, yeah, doing the music, but also like hearing it. Yeah. And then being brand participating and like, Oh, God, I just delete that part missed. Let's move on. Rohadi 56:44 You know, the things of healthy deconstruction, that I would like to see is the community that affirms such and again, to use these words, we've used a couple of them Christ centred biblical community reclaim the early church, which we're serious about, but in a certain way, and another one, I think, is radical inclusion. When we talk about radical inclusion, we wanted the embodied effect of that, and I've come out of a I've wasn't really in it, but I certainly was credentialed with them. Evangelical ish denomination that one of their emmos Is everyone gets to play. It's a notion of radical inclusion. But they brought down a hardline stance on same sex marriage. So I left, I gave up my my credentials in protest to that, because that's not an embodiment of radical inclusion. And it's only so long until the problem of the LGBTQ community becomes a problem of the racialized community. Right, one of my next kind of thing. So as a solidarity piece there, but to say that I think healthy deconstructed community has dealt with some of these fundamental pieces, and one of them is diversity. radical inclusion. Yes, yes. Yeah. Across racialized lines, which I think and I'm biassed, but I think the data points that's one of the hardest places have of diversity to embody in community. We don't have virtually have no examples. The church should be one, but it's not the church is a race. It's segregated. racially segregated still is today. Read Michael Emerson on that. That's right. radical inclusion, I think is one and then another healthy pieces is I don't know if you, it would be really weird to be like, Oh, we're the church that's deconstructing come to First Church of deconstruction. That would be kind of weird. So I think that there are churches sorry for church being one who are embodying a new reclaimed way. Not in not in like everything, but who are making these attempts at the new thing. And as someone who is deconstructing if you are in that type of community, then you're not in a deconstructing community. You're you're in that community that will support you through your deconstruction, because it has gone through that before. Drew Brown 59:23 That's like, that's like, yes. Right. Rohadi 59:27 I don't have the full answer. I don't have the book on on that one of what what that specifically looks like other than it can be many things, reflecting many voices. And some of the core pieces of that Christian ethic we were talking about, but I would I would be slow to be like, Oh my and I'm going to contradict myself here that my small group that is meeting for coffee and then starting the journey of deconstructing by reading the book by sewn so Oh, I think you can call that the deconstructed community or whatever. But I'm not sure if that is an example of the holistic church community on path to reclaim something new. There's something missing there. And I, and I know I'm leaving this now on a cliffhanger. Because I want people to think through like, what what does this actually look like in our place in space? And I could be totally wrong there. Maybe that? No, many people would argue that that is totally an expression of church, we can call it such. But find a place that is embodying some of these practices or all of them. That'd be great. Yeah, and venture with them. Make the attempt. Yeah, they're out there. Drew Brown 1:00:50 They are. They totally are. Dude, Rohadi 1:00:51 they're out there. That's, that's the whole piece that I hope you folks can hear. And with the pandemic, the odd thing that has happened is that it's given a lot of folks who would be fragmented otherwise a chance to find kindred spirits through through Twitter or Instagram or whatever. Yeah. Now the trick will be to how to find that community and proximity. Yeah, no doubt trail off for us. Drew Brown, wrap us into into all that we have discovered and and and shimmy and shaped our way through in this journey of deconstructing, I really value your voice, brother. Thanks so much for being here. Is there anything you want to add to this journey? I hope a lot of folks listening get their mom to listen and grandmas and Drew Brown 1:01:51 yeah. No, I got nothing. But I will say that's actually the whole like, you're not alone in this even though you feel alone is keen. On there's time. Especially now think, thankfully, like there's so many resources and groups and festivals and Instagram. Right? Like everybody is on this. And there's so many people who are teaching incredible things and wonderful things and sharing great ideas and thoughts. Dive into that, please do not go on this journey. I mean, the fact that you're listening right now probably means that you're already on that journey. And yet you're not doing this alone, but for some chance yet you are yeah, there's so many opportunities to connect with people across this vast universe of deconstruction, so definitely do that. Rohadi 1:02:43 And look those for those voices on the margins. Yep. Drew Brown 1:02:46 Specifically, they're Rohadi 1:02:47 coming as they're here. Yes, they're leading. Go give them your money. Give us their money. Yeah, I take the monies. I can use what is the I'll be shouting it out in the show notes and so forth. Do we have a another iteration of Advent instrumentals coming this winter? Drew Brown 1:03:09 This winter? I'm right now working on a series of Advents like, like prayers and instrumentals. Yeah, so Rohadi 1:03:19 part three, is that Yeah. hims architect. Yeah, yeah. Drew Brown 1:03:23 So hopefully, if I can get it done, it needs to be done in in two weeks. So but don't get it done then. It'll be for next year. But But um, but yeah, that is the goal beyond prayers and specifically around Rohadi 1:03:36 justice. These homies need to go and check it out. There's Dru Brown, on do rap music on Instagram. It'd be there on Twitter, Patreon. Is that still rolling? Yeah, surprisingly, Patreon still rolling. That's arduous. I commend you. Friend, you are on Spotify Of course. And you can buy all of these albums. Bandcamp you got a baby