Rohadi 0:00 Hey what's up, we back. I'm back. That's John Corbin, on the intro and outro again for season four. Welcome to the authors edition. I am Rohadi, coming at you from Treaty seven lands in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. This episode, I'm excited to share with you it's one episode, but it's going to be longer. Just under one hour with my friend, Reverend Dr. Dennis Edwards. Dennis and I met in Philly, at a church planting conference. And I knew a little bit about him and checked out his his talks that he shared. And what struck me and what strikes me with a lot of academics who are pastors or were pastors at one point, there's just a different level of connection, I've found at least. And so I value that connection with Dr. Edwards. In this episode, we're going to talk about his book, Might from the Margins on the second half of it. But on the first half, we're going to talk a little bit about his story as an academic and also as a pastor, and what it looks like or what it used to look like to try the kick the can, as it were, to usher in a church or lead a church into a multi ethnic setting. It didn't work out. And we'll explore why it didn't. I think the honesty in his experience as a pastor lends credit to his words and also credit to the scholarship that he does. We'll talk about that on the second half as well. Without further ado, enough for me. Let's jump in and meet Dr. Edwards. Yeah, it was in Chicago. Before pandemic, Dennis Edwards 1:56 okay. Rohadi 1:58 I don't think it was it would have been like the fall 2019 For what was it called liberating? Oh, you were there like that? Yeah, Dennis Edwards 2:09 I was there too. And yeah, I'm saying that because it wasn't a huge crowd. But it's a good sized group. I remember Vince Vaughn to gave a talk. And I was like, Whoa, Angela Parker, these are people I know. Because she's New Testament. Also. Reggie Williams. I know he was I did a small workshop that actually was the early stages of some of the thoughts on my from the margins, I called the power to the people. And I did a workshop there. So yeah, I was there that that was actually a good gathering. Rohadi 2:39 Yeah, it was, it's always, it's always a mistake to not be able to see everyone, you know, all the faces you see on social media. Speaker 2 2:48 Right, right. I'm glad you were there, though. Because I think we need we needed that kind of, and I think we're still getting it, but needed to have those voices that were decentering some of the white evangelical voices. Yeah, Rohadi 3:01 I went down, because we're doing this work, obviously, in Canada, but it's it's different. It's different, doesn't have the same posture, it doesn't have the same amplified voice. It's not as many people but it's also in some ways, further ahead, at least in the decolonizing side, and in terms of reclaiming back to an education of the land. So in an indigenous spirituality, an indigenous land base teachings, there's more of that, I think, going on less influence from a historic black and brown church in Canada, which is in many respects, not existent, especially out west where I am. Speaker 2 3:50 Okay, I can I can think I can understand that. I'd be curious to at some point and even to learn more, because we have to minister in Minnesota became more aware of, of indigenous voices that I you know, in BC, I didn't really hear from as much. And I just feel like we've named has a lot to teach us there. And but it's it's, anyway, it was on the radar. But I but I don't know, I want I want solidarity, you know, with our indigenous brothers and sisters. But I don't know what that looks like, in some places. If there's not a strong enough black presence, you know, or, but anyway, that's just something more down the road, I think, but I feel like it's coming. I feel like we're moving in a good direction. Rohadi 4:36 I wonder how much in many respects COVID has, has reminded those who were kind of in the middle, let's say anti Asian racism, for example, of of that picture of solidarity, which may have not been there before, but suddenly, there's more. There's an alert or a growing awareness in the contemporary world that you can't just hide as a person of colour, that you have to now be drawn into the same fight as it were, or yes claim the fight towards liberation. Speaker 2 5:12 That's, that's a good word. Okay, I'm hearing that. Yeah, I It's funny because I was just talking to some folks yesterday that when I saw the Asian American Christian collaborative, growing and developing and then taken to the streets here in Chicago, for black lives matter, that was, I was excited. I was grateful, because that's a new move in my lifetime. I mean, I grew up in an era where, you know, I'm a city guy grew up in New York and in DC. And, and there was a lot of tension with, say, Asian shop owners. Well, you remember the Spike Lee movie do the right thing. And you know, there's a stereotype of black folks in the city having, having pressure with Asians who have businesses in the city, but live outside of those communities. And we, we should have had more solidarity and I feel like we were we lost something. But so now I see the Christians are at least making good moves, I feel good moves to, to build together build something new together, to and COVID, like you said, has kept us in a way voiding issues, and we have to confront things. So I'm, I'm hopeful, actually, for a new sense of community, at least with Asian Americans and African Americans and certainly Latino Latino Americans. Yeah. Rohadi 6:31 Yeah, I have, I have the same sense of I mean, you certainly you offer more perspective of, of what has happened in the past and how that is different, like, every generation seems to be reiterating the same things. And you can read Dr. King today, and realise nothing's changed in 60 years. And so in some ways you can, you can you can feel as though we're stuck, but then, yeah, the the Asian pieces there, that's the piece of demand the demands of whiteness, in many respects of the demands to assimilate. And if you're in that middle for Asians, so you can just keep your head down, you know, that's very Japanese, keep your head down, like a turtle, poke it out once in a while, but just work, work work. And maybe you will be afforded the benefits of whiteness. And then COVID comes in to remind all these Asians who look remotely who don't look anything Chinese, right, but you know, Chinese enough that you come with the terms and conditions to and you just happen to forget about that. Speaker 2 7:39 Wow, wow, that's that's the Oh, but I I was seeing that. I mean, because, and, and obviously, our president down here, exacerbated all of that. And, and now still, there's backlash on Asians, but the way you said it is, I mean, I can't speak from that perspective, but the idea of like, sort of putting your head down and going at it, but I've seen African Americans who've tried to assimilate that way to say, Look, I'm just gonna do the best I can, I'm gonna put my head down, do my work. And if I'm good, you know, whatever that means, I can stay out of it. I can avoid any issues in trouble. And that doesn't happen if I mean, because you get you get pegs, third time you still get pulled over by the cops and all that kind of stuff happens. So yeah, I mean, you said it. Well. Rohadi 8:23 I want to give a little bit of intro now a little bit of also your experience, because you're in a unique space and that you're an academic, you teach New Testament. But you also, I think you still hold credentials, right? But you you have a lot of experiences as a lead pastor in the evangelical Covenant Church. Speaker 2 8:47 Recently, I am credentialed and enjoy coming to church. That's right. Rohadi 8:52 Let's talk about let's talk first about your work as a pastor, because I'll want to dig in just a little bit with it. But there is some good work, some attempts around leading multi racial churches. Right. And that was your experience in DC. Speaker 2 9:12 Yeah, right. Yes. Hello. Yeah. That was I went to DC and nine at the, at the beginning of 95. In fact, my first Sunday was January 119 95. And so it's a while ago, prior to that I was a church planter in New York. I'm from New York City. And so I'll just tell you real quickly, my my, my journey is very circuitous. I think the issue was me trying to find a home a theological and ecclesial logical home, where I can be myself. And and I didn't grow up in a very stereotypical African American church, you know, because I probably would have just stayed there. But I wound up. Just short version is, in my college years, met up with some white evangelicalism. So I do Isn't it around different churches attended an African American Baptist Church? But I didn't really sense my own call to ministry until a little later. And by that time it was a white pastor and haven't dug for free church pastor who told me I should go to seminary. Now he told me I should go to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, Illinois. And that's the nomination with the advent of a Free Church. He hadn't gone there, but he felt like that would be good for me. I wasn't sure I wasn't sure. But right around that same time, there was an African American pastor and new to the Evangelical Free Church was getting a lot of press here in Chicago's America. So I thought, well, maybe there is a place for me as an African American in this denomination. So I went to Trinity. I did well there. And and the church I attended on the west side of Chicago had made a name for itself and being I think, at the time, we were using the language of multiracial. And, and I said, Well, you know, I'd like to see something like this in New York. So I went back to New York kind of church didn't know anything about planning church. I denomination wasn't given any money, although they would like publicise you'd like put your name out there to different churches and in the denomination publications, and my picture was there. My wife and I are little children. So so there was a little bit of publicity, but no money. So I went back to teaching school and everything. So we planted a church called new community, and new community struggled for me. We rapidly money on teaching school, all of that. But that was my first attempt at multi ethnic I think, that's the word we use now and in New York is certainly fit, multi ethnic ministry, then DC than Minneapolis. So yeah, that was my first experience. And then I went to DC I serve a church that was founded by Mennonites, I shifted my credential, I got ordained in a Mennonite church, I became the lead pastor there. But that's I talked about in my book, that's where a lot of my real Stark issues with race and power came into play. And then we planted another church called Peace Fellowship in a different part of DC. And I did that was there for 11 years before I went to Minnesota, and I, so I ended my pastoral career in Minnesota and became a full time professor. Rohadi 12:09 Let's stick to DC here. And your experience was I think it's a it's a worth hearing, because now fill in the blanks for me, there was a an ideal or perhaps a hope, do you think of trying to find unity? In racialized diversity? Speaker 2 12:32 Yes, yes. Well said, I, when I learned about the position as church on Capitol Hill. I, I learned about it through one of John Perkins old publications, they were advertising about this church, I applied and friends of mine said, Look, Dennis, you know, churches take a long time to make a decision. I got a call, like within a week of sending my stuff in the pastor say, we'd really like to talk to you. And I'm not naive, I knew part of his because I'm black. And they and it's DC, DC was called Chocolate City. I mean, DC was a majority black city. So when I got to interview, and this was before the social media and on your computer, and all that stuff, so I had to physically go down to DC. And when I went down to DC and met with the search committee, I was sort of I was impressed that they had this church in the city with resources with a building and trying to connect with its neighbours. So I thought I had, of course, I would want to be part of this. I knew I was a racial minority at the church, but the rhetoric, the language was that we wanted to be in church, for our community for our city. And we know we're all what mostly white. In fact, they even in the description of the church, they meant to mention the percentage of African Americans who come to the church, which I thought was interesting to put in the descriptor of the church. And I still remember it was 6%, African Americans started a church of about 400. That meant 24 or so people are black, or African Americans. And no, not a lot in a city that's, you know, at the time was like, 70%, African American. So I, I knew there were challenges, but the overture to me was that you could help us be better representative of our community. Rohadi 14:15 Yeah, yeah. I guess we'll skip the middle. How did that go? Speaker 2 14:22 Oh, you know, the weird part about it was I mean, if I'm really honest, the masses of people, young adults. Yeah, I don't want to overstate it, but they really loved me. I mean, I had a good warm connection with so many people that and that was as the associate and the lead pastor went on to go he had a as a PhD. So he went on to go teach someplace while I was actually doing my PhD studies at the same time, but he went off to go teach. So there was this weird place where I was the associate. Didn't think I fit there because the pressure I was having was from leadership, not from the masses and people in the pew who liked my preach saying, like me as a person and like my family, and not just like, I think very respected. But the people people in power was seeing that the church was changing that there was different energy. I am, I'm an amateur musician. I'm not very good. But I'm a decent woodwind player. So I used to have a praise team that I put together and my praise team, we had different musicians. So we take turns, we had probably about five or so different praise teams that would take turns leading worship. And my praise team got a lot of excitement, because I brought a diversity of voices and people to the, to the team that got pushed back something as simple as that. I mean, it was like, it was like my presence and the way of doing ministry was challenging the status quo of some white folks were, whereas the masses of people were loving it. So the short version of a really long story is that it was the power folks that really had a hard time with me, I got voted in to be the lead pastor after the other guy left. And, and that's when it really got tough. Some of the power folks, they started leaving the church, which which sent some anxiety to the, to the, you know, people managing the budget and whatnot. And they were they were feeling like Dennis is, you know, pushing people away. White folks from the suburbs was saying, you know, there's no place for us, then it's only cares about the city, that's actually a quote, then it's only cares about the city, there's no place for us like, it's, you know, my guys table isn't big enough. And so with all that anxiety, I couldn't get anything done. So I actually resigned. And that was, that was really tough. Rohadi 16:32 I wonder, and this is going to be a loaded question. But I wonder, I mean, you went through a space where the intent was there, to try to embody something better? Do you think it's possible? I mean, all things are possible, right? Do you think that because the churches, church as a whole are so deeply racialized, yet finding a space that is indeed, truly multi ethnic, is darn near impossible? Speaker 2 17:13 Yeah, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, I certainly was, no, of course, this is the way it's supposed to be. I rejected what the church, church, you know, missiologist people calling a homogeneous unit principle each up better, the church's best is homogeneous. Yes, I was rejecting that, I have come to a place where I don't embrace that I still, I want to believe and I still believe that a multi ethnic church is, is healthy, or can be healthy, and can model the kingdom of God. However, I have this. These, however, is about how we deal with power and privilege. And that was the area that never got addressed. We were always talking about proximity by getting us in the same room. And you know, taking a beautiful picture and putting it on the brochure, people sit next to you, but we never really recommend power and privilege. Now I hear people talking about power and privilege. So I think if we can get to the place where white folks are, will sit and listen. And people with means realise that their money doesn't buy them place in church or in orange glory. If we can figure out a way and I think there's movement here to deal with power and privilege, then I think we can talk about the real multi ethnic church. Rohadi 18:32 That's a good word. I wonder, I don't know, part of me is cynical that any predominantly white church is capable of becoming diverse. I don't think that you can. Speaker 2 18:45 I mean, I don't think that's the movement. Ya know, what I'm saying? I think there's got to be a lot of white, white churches divesting themselves. Rohadi 18:54 And I don't know if they would do that. I think they can become anti racist. But I don't think they can become diverse. Dennis Edwards 19:01 Right. That's a good word. That's where I think I agree. Rohadi 19:05 And I would wonder, in all the attempts of multi ethnic, I don't think a white man can lead that. And that's true. That's, that's a blanket statement. And everyone, everyone needs to contend with the power systems of white supremacy, whether you're white or not, I could embody the same things. That's but I don't think you have as a as a white male or even a white woman that you have the cultural depths to lead properly in multi ethnic settings. Oh, Speaker 2 19:38 I agree with you. And it does sound hard, because I do have white friends who have really done a lot of good work, not a good one. And I and I commend them for that. But many of them would even say that, that doesn't make them necessarily equipped to be to be pastored to this multi ethnic group. Now, I used to hear that all the time. I had white Pastor friends will say, Oh, my church's, like the United Nations. And I said United Nations has like one white guy up front and a few smattering of people in colour inside. And I would hear that all the time. And I think from their perspective, just the fact that any non white people came in was like a really big deal. But again, it didn't deal with power, it didn't deal with privilege. So I tend to agree with you. I think that what what what I'm seeing is that white folks say, hey, white pastors were like, come on, please come to our church. And basically, you know, suddenly, and now, I think the challenge that they're facing is that no, people are calling on us. We don't want to not all of us want to assimilate. So so the question is, will you white people come and differ? Not the right leadership? Is not a lot of that Rohadi 20:45 the other way? Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, I haven't really imagined that direction. I've always picture what the third way what the new way could be. But yeah, to come into, yeah, the quote unquote, minority space. Speaker 2 21:02 But but coming into that space without an expectation of being in charge. And see, because that's also an issue because you might you might be familiar with Corey Edwards. I don't think we're related with Korea, which is a sociologist has a book called The elusive dream. And she talks about how in multiracial churches, even if you have pastors of colour, they tend to still defer to whiteness, because, you know, if white folks are not satisfied with what's happening, they'll walk. And and so she basically asserts that the church can be multiracial only to the extent that white people want it to be. So there's still exercising power, even though even though the leadership is you know, somebody of colour. Yeah, yeah. That's, that's the challenge to me is how will you how will you be there as a white person, Rohadi 21:48 so much unlearning to do especially including for Christians of colour? You're a professor of New Testament, where are you? Because you were at Northern. Where are you now? Speaker 2 22:08 That's right. I'm at North Park, which is in Chicago, and it's related. It's where the seminary of the evangelical Covenant Church, okay, so it's kind of in line with my ordination, my credential. And I already knew people here and I was happy to come and be part of part Rohadi 22:25 one. Why New Testament? What drew you into that? You know, Speaker 2 22:31 I told you earlier that I grew up in a church that was like a non traditional African American church, it wasn't like the mainstream big denomination, I grew up in a little fringe, a charismatic church that the denominational colours of apostolic might not be so little infringe anymore, but they were then. So theologically, it was very confusing. I'll just say real quickly. They didn't believe in a trinity. There's just oneness Jesus only. You have, you had to be baptised and named Jesus had to speak in tongues to be saved. These were not like special gifts, if you didn't have one of that experience. So I didn't have I got baptised so that I didn't speak in tongues right away. So I was like, like a problem. I didn't fit the paradigm I was, I was going to church and faithful and all that. But the short version of a very long story is that I was confused theologically. So I wanted to know the Bible as best I could. So when I finally started doctoral studies, I honestly thought I was going to pursue the Old Testament, because I was always intrigued by the Old Testament. But the programmes that I was after, were going to make that death actually way too long. That would have to do more Semitic language, I already had Hebrew. I had some Aramaic, they said I had to take yet another Semitic language. So I just emphasised New Testament for pragmatic reasons. But as I got into it, I started realising you know, this, couldn't find that many African American scholars were doing it. So I was happy to stay there. Rohadi 23:55 Yeah, that was one of the pieces I recollect from, from seminary for myself, and it was totally by chance, was I never had a woman professor, but but I had Cree man, a theologian and Congolese systematic theologian, shape and form me, which at the time is that I didn't realise how different that was. Yeah, it's unusual. And how odd Yeah, how unusual it is. And so to have your voice and within evangelical spaces, yeah. And then you test with that. That's rare. Speaker 2 24:34 It is rare and, and I didn't readily take that title Evangelical, except I knew the denominations. I was around had it in the title. I just think my chairman, he was just this word, you know? But it's just it seemed that way to me until now, of course. Yeah. But I was I was kind of my concern with people who denied so Certain tenets of the faith, like the literal resurrection of Jesus, or, you know, things like that. So at Trinity, they would just classify anybody as liberal that didn't. And that wasn't a helpful word for me either. But there were certain denials that I that I didn't want to, to wrap myself around. So I didn't know where I wanted to affirm. And so I got my doctorate at a Catholic University that in practice affirmed, you know, the resurrection of Jesus affirm some basic things that I believe, so I felt pretty comfortable there, even though there's still historical critical arguments about you know, details about Scripture. And so that's, that's all cool with me, it was more that I wanted to be around people who actually believed in Jesus. And so I didn't find a lot of African American scholars who were that I that I can know, personally, that can help me in the journey. And I also went part time I didn't go, I didn't get a chance to like, you know, pack up and go to Europe and not get, you know, get it done. Or get a full ride and do it, you know, Harvard or Princeton, or something I would love to, but I, it took me nine years altogether to do that. So I'm, I'm the working man's, no scholar, I know what it's like. Yeah, exactly. And, and in that process, I didn't get to meet as many mentors as I wished. Rohadi 26:33 Want to talk about your book, The latest one might from the margins, the Gospels power to turn the tables on injustice? That's a lot of words in there that you don't typically see in an evangelical book. Maybe we shouldn't classify it as that. But that's not your first book. You have, I think, multiple books, but one on Second Peter, I think Speaker 2 26:57 on first First Peter, and then a small book on the Bible called what is the Bible? And how should we understand it? That's an antibiotic Anabaptist series of books, called the Jesus way, it's one it's one of the series. Yeah. So those those books have got out right now. And yeah, thank you for recognising. Rohadi 27:20 Why, first, Peter. Speaker 2 27:23 Well, I did my dissertation work in James. And, and in that process, I had occasion to look over First Peter. And the reason James is because of the Justice kind of stuff that was going on, that goes on in that book, you know, so I thought that I would. So anyway, I wound up working through that book and having a look over it for as Peter a lot, partly because they both addressed the people in the in the diaspora, which is, which is not a common term in the New Testament. So because that's there, I went back and forth, you know, looked a lot at first, Peter. Well, by the time this commentary series was coming out, I actually was approached about writing on First Peter, and I asked, is, has James been taken? Because I thought, well, I've done a lot of work and James, and and they had already assigned James to a different scholar. So I said, But you know, First Peter would be my next choice. I'm excited to get into it, partly because similar themes and justice have have following the way of Jesus in difficult situations. And, and this notion notion of being a member of the dispersion. Those themes are in James. They're also in Peter, First Peter. Rohadi 28:32 Let's springboard from diaspora and flow right into Mike from the margins. One of the things in your book right off the bat, which I don't know if I've ever read, and it was your line on this book centres, marginalised people like that this is this, this is who I am writing to. Yeah. And to make note of that, in writing and distinction. I noticed that Dennis Edwards 29:02 I appreciate that you're Rohadi 29:03 speaking to me. Better notice, it's calling me out right here. h2? Yeah, Speaker 2 29:10 thank you. Well, you know, it's funny, because when we have these conversations, I say we as Christians now that we get into stuff about race and class or Power Privilege. White folks, of course, assume that everything's about it. So the question almost always comes right away. It was, well, what do you want me to do and all that? And I have been, Oh, my goodness, um, teen workshops in my lifetime and all these spaces. And that's always the question. And then when you say what you'd be done, then there's resistance. Well, you know, my family didn't own slaves and you know, all that kind of stuff. So you go through all of that. And I say, You know what, I'm kind of tired of feeling like the goal is to get white people to do something different or be different. What I'd like to do is see the rest of us say, we're not waiting for that. Yes, you know, we're not waiting for white folks. Get it? No, we have worked together. We have a gospel that is empowering. We don't need to get more power from white people. Rohadi 30:09 Yes, yes. You did us and I made note of this, but now you answered it because of the James. Peter reference of why you're using diasporic Christians instead of? So I know say Cohn and those before you may have actually referenced, I don't I don't remember who it wasn't called. But they would use terms of the disinherited. Yes, yeah. disinherited can understand the marginalised people Christian can be drawn into the, to the effects in the experience of the cross. Yes, because of their but you use the terms of diaspora? Are you are you leveraging out of your work in jeans? Yes, Speaker 2 30:54 exactly. Yep. Yep, you're catching that? Because I think that marginal status, could, you know, maybe in first Peter and James, it's not a literal geographic distance, right. So maybe it's not, but the point is, they use that language of geographic distancing, to describe the feeling and the situation of their audience, whether it's literal, and that is really not the point. The point is that word captures and alienation and captures and distance, it captures this feeling that I don't really fit in. And that feeling is true of immigrants. It's true of people who were who were brought here, as, as enslaved Africans, and also in your country, I think it would also fit indigenous people because even though it's their land, they've been made to feel like they're the diaspora, you know, like that made them feel like they're the alien, when it's when when the land was there. So so we have this sense that whiteness and European powers have created this sense of alienation and distancing and marginalisation disinheritance, if you will, that I said, you know, let's speak from that space. Yeah. Rohadi 32:10 You use that and and now it makes so much sense. I'm glad that we tease that out and connect that now that not merely the term, but its context. It's so much wider, because yes, for on this in this way. You are using all the different or however many other intersections it includes. Speaker 2 32:35 Yes, yes, thank you, you're seeing there's a there's just since my book came out, it was probably maybe just right before it I didn't get to incorporate. But Willie Jennings has a commentary on the book of Acts. And in there he talks, he has a section where he really talks about early on, like in his intro, about this notion of being diaspora. And it's just this powerful, quote, but the essence of it is how, how frail and fragile the life of folks in the Aspera situation is, when compared to the Empire. He says something like your existence is only measured in terms of how beneficial you are to the Empire. Well, well, marginal people get that right, marginal people get that. And immigrants get that women get that as like you're only measured in terms of your value is only in terms of what you can produce for the Empire. So when he said that, like, yes, he's catching what I'm trying to say, because it's, it's that kind of distinction as made Yes, in the New Testament, and I also think it's happening, has has been happening in our world with imperialism and colonialism, that that the the those who have formerly been colonised Nee, need to band together to say what we have learned as people of God, and our marginal status is actually better representative representative of the way of Jesus than the way the power people have been trying to show us Christianity. Rohadi 33:58 Oh, boy. As you were speaking, I'm just connecting the dots here and realise, in my own writing my own book that I'm trying to put together, that that motif, I'm going to have to draw into the intersections of powers systems, because we have one now in the empire used Empire language. And it's the exact same relationship that we have in present day with with a capitalist system, where your value as a person is measured in your utility in production to that system. Speaker 2 34:38 Exactly. Exactly. And spit you out. Right, it'll eat you up, and to say, how is that the way of Christ? But But, but if, but if your church is born out of that world, then that's the way you measure success. That's the way you measure faith. I mean, it's what we're seeing with with you know, with the Uh, with even down here with the Republican Party and I'm not really trying to talk partisan stuff, but what we're seeing is the folks who champion typical sort of capitalistic American way of being, have baptised that as Christian. Yes. And I'm like, our first century forebears would have not said that, you know, and and oh, yeah, so I know America is not wrong, but at the same time, isn't there a Christianity that should transcend those things? And and I think that's what marginal marginalised people show us is that the way of faith transcends your, your those power systems that humans produce? Yeah. Rohadi 35:40 There's a tweet. Yeah, we there's a word for that. We call it the Protestant work ethic. Yeah, how's that going? We're getting the real good. Speaker 2 35:56 But they think that it's, it's born out of your effort, and oh, my goodness, the hardest working people in the world are not, are not in capitalist countries that that hit, you know, they might not even be Protestant. I mean, the people in these developing countries who work hours and hours a day was showing all kinds of determination and grit. And we say, oh, no, really, the successful person is the person who's spending you know, 20 hours a week playing golf, and, and has other than having other people work for them. And that becomes the model of, of faith and success Rohadi 36:30 is broken. Speaker 2 36:33 Oh, man, you're not kidding. It's broken. And I and I know the Lord knows is broken. So I don't want to speak from any self righteous way. The Lord knows is broken. But I think he's, he's working through the folks who have been pushed to the side to say, here's what the better way can look like. And that's and I want to be part of that. You know, that this better way of the faith, which is like the way of Jesus is not going to come from the top down powerbroker way of being and I just want to be part of that, that thing that guys do. Rohadi 37:03 Amen. Amen. We got to get into your chapter. You use the power motif, the power of God of diasporic people the power and you have one on worship? Yeah. I was just recently preaching. You know what my whole past year has been a lingering and lamentation. In lament, we have such poor formation, at least in my church experience around lament its praise and worship, not lamentation, as we call it, right and, and COVID, the pandemic that calls for justice have all been reasons to just stay in the season of lament, as we enter in another lent season, lamentation. And the book of James as I was preaching on Sunday, says that God sides with those who mourn, you know, and you have a chapter now on a mode of worship. And I'm not sure you did draw in lamentation, but you use the words of worship as a mechanism unto justice. And that's not something we have practices around forming worship experiences, as a mechanism, an expression of justice. Yeah, unpack this for us? Speaker 2 38:48 Well, I will try. I think my model has been what the what the experts have said about enslaved Africans in America. And when we consider, say, like the spirituals, so you've got these songs born out of pain. And they weren't just to make the workday go by it was also to say something about the character of God, and about there being a life beyond this life, right. So, so that sense of being able to denounce injustice, and to affirm the way the delivering power of God came through those songs, you know, even Dubois called, you know, had had a big discussion on the, on the slave songs, I think, as he called them. So the My point was to say worship is this expression of what ought to be, not just how I'm feeling today, or just how you know happy God as somebody called them, you know, Jesus, my boyfriend songs, it's there. There's, there's a sense of, of the Justice comes out because we're singing about what ought to be and What God, how God is in the world. And then we try to model that with our lives. So So you know the prophets God has done this right? I don't care about the festivals and the feast lawyers and all this, I want justice to roll down I want. I want righteousness to flow like a waterfall. I mean, this is that's the way of being that's the way of worship, right? So the songs are part of it. But the songs reflect something, and you're reflecting this justice oriented God who wants His people to live in this way, you know, of affirming who he is, and how he works in the world. So yeah, that's what I was trying to say in there. And I know, we get hung up on the stylings and all those things that, I mean, I'm so old now that I've been in so many different contexts, that now I'm not super old. But I've been around long enough that I've seen, oh, my goodness, low church highchair. I mean, I've been in a lot of different contexts. So to me, it's not so much the form is that if your forms are, where you stop, and that's what you focus so much on, I think you're missing the real way. The Power of Worship is in this justice oriented way of life that I think the prophets talked about, and I would say even in the New Testament is talked about, Rohadi 41:11 we don't have the formation, I think to reimagine worship, beyond the songs. Yes, thank Dennis Edwards 41:18 you. Thank you. Well said. Rohadi 41:19 We don't have the picture of higher low church. And this is a dare I say it, what COVID has provided as an opportunity for us to at least reimagine what that Sunday morning is because the center's whether you're high, low liturgical, contemporary, doesn't matter. You have the same stuff. And it's a prayer, five songs, announcements, and then someone preaches for 30 to 45 minutes, and you wrote, like 52 weeks of the year, and we have no formation to imagine anything beyond saying, Oh, Speaker 2 41:56 my goodness, you captured it. And, and as as, you know, I mean, I didn't I guess when I was younger, and first call the ministry I was, I rejected it because I thought, Oh, my goodness, that responsibility to be up in front of everybody and saying, Thus says the Lord, you know, but then as time went on, I started realising, okay, I embrace that part of it. But even as time went on, I realised but this, isn't it, right? I mean, it's not but but every church I well, I plan to do churches, but the churches that I worked for, all this energy goes into Sunday, Sunday, because that's the day, right, that's, that's gotta pay the bills that day, we've got to get people to keep coming back. And maybe people, you know, get converted that day, too. So it's good. I mean, we hope for that. But at the same time, it's almost like we don't know how to help people. The word formation is so important, because we don't know how to, we didn't know how to help people to say, this is one expression of your whole way of life, you know, we come together to stay. But this is one piece of the whole of your whole way of being, you know, I think more and more people are seeing that we need Rohadi 43:01 to be okay with trying different things. And that's the blank slate, I think that's in front of us, especially as Sunday mornings have been pushed away or pushed online like it. And ironically, Cypher church and what how we've embodied worship at one time we did the songs and the preaching. But other times, we've just tried to embody different things, movement, dance, spoken word, poetry, writing all of these, and we'll switch it up every week. But in the pandemic times, we've done the opposite end of the spectrum, where we just are trying to hold some sense of being online and having simple prayer and a word. And that's it, which I think in this world is, is if that's all you got, that's okay. But if you tried to replicate Sunday, with the online band and through the screen, it's your imagination is being stuck. Something is preventing it from thinking of greater and grander things of where God is at work in our, in our neighbourhood City and beyond. Speaker 2 44:11 Yeah, my heart is with you all. I mean, I am not pastoring. Right now I'm full time as a professor, and my heart is with all of the church leaders because it's hard to know how to manage this pandemic. But I do think what you what you're getting, at least how I'm hearing you is that there's, there's this weird, and maybe unique opportunity to be creative and creative in the sense of just thinking outside of what has always been an ad trying to replicate what we've always done and just throw it online. I'm hearing you say this is a chance to try to get get some get to the, to the core of who we are what we're about, and not just the forms. So I find something fresh in them Rohadi 44:53 and to test I mean, so I mean, I did throw this out there that this is the time and so forth. And then Some folks did chime back in and say, Listen, all I'm trying to do as a pastor right now is survive. I have no energy to imagine anything. And you know, that. Yeah, I hear that too. And so maybe I got a write up on something. Well, the final thought, I think, as I pull out your book here, as we linger around the embodied space, just how we can embody Christ in the spirit of, of activity of justice, your book here says Worship can be protest, it can be subversive. Now, I know we just spoke about the forms and so forth. But and you gave an example of the spirituals What does protest and subversive worship look like? Yes. Speaker 2 45:57 So I take a take one quick example. I'll think of an old time and then I'll try to make it connect to the present time. So you take you take the Palm Sunday incident, right? Jesus comes into Jerusalem, I call that a public protest, I call that a subversive act, because he is he's flipping the script, you know, he's not, you know, on the big white horse, he's coming on and on QVC that, but then also, all these things happen that agitate the power brokers, you got people who are yelling, you know, Hosanna, and he's, and that's telling him to silence the crown. And he says, No, then he goes into the temple after that Matthew's gospel tells us, he goes into the temple. And he heals folks who, who didn't have full access into the temple. And right after that, he blesses the children. So it's like, he's messing with everybody's stuff, you know, in this day, and so he's he's riding in as this kind of King he's killing poet folks. He's. So when I say worship is subversive, and countercultural is that we have made it be about, hey, look how great we are, look how sharp we can do things. Look how powerful and rich we are. And instead, maybe what we're saying is, it's when we see the young folks saying black lives matter. And standing in the face of injustice, and making public protests, maybe there's a way that the church can say, you know, what, we we have a voice to raise here to, and worship means that we're going to, we're going to celebrate who God is and guys affirmation of God's creation. So that means we at times, take it to the streets, it means at times, we have to hear the voice of the children like that match the passage, or we spend ourselves for the poor is the way Isaiah would say. So that's what I mean by subversion. It undermines the typical way of doing things, and says that there's a Jesus way of doing it that brings the power from, from under and from the sides. And not from the top, you know, and so yeah, I mean, that's kind of what I mean by that. I don't know, like, what that means for people's budgets in church, or how they're going to do this Sunday service. But if they can at least come to the table with those ideas, then I say, then the creative juices can start. I mean, if you if you can get your leadership or however you structure churches on the same page and say, You know what, this is what our end goal is, is to see our community Alas, to see transformation and see these, if that's the end goal, then how do we shape what we're doing now to get there? Right. And I feel like we've almost made it what was the end goal is, can we be Willow Creek, or or Saddleback, you know, and at least in my ear, those were those were the big churches. Yeah, you know what I mean? So I think sometimes we saw that as the end goal. And I'm saying, No, there's something else. So that's the subversive party in my mind. Rohadi 48:57 Would you in that same week, and this is really neat that you use the Passion Week as one of calling into subversive narratives and a dance of protest that connects to Unknown Speaker 49:11 like that dance and protest is awesome. Rohadi 49:15 That connects to Drew, Drew heart, Dr. Drew Hart, who will be on the podcast, too. He leverages out the story of Bill Robinson on the other end. That's right, would you call the act of Jesus? toppling the tables in the temple, a subversive act of worship? Speaker 2 49:38 Yes, yes. You know, it's interesting. You say, Oh, my goodness, Drew is a friend of mine, and that his chapter on breakfast that was really something I hadn't actually worked it out the way he did. I thought it was good. Well, actually, that's where the subtitle of my book comes from. The Gauss was proud to turn the tables on justice. So I didn't actually do an exposition of that section. But we thought by putting it in the title, people wouldn't be imagining Hello. So yeah, so that was so I read that you went there, because I definitely see that is the case. So Jesus upsets the status quo literally upsets turns over the tables. And now here's a little thing. It's when we mostly focus on the economics that are happening there. So you get these questions about, oh, is it that cheating people out of money and all this stuff? What's really weird is that some New Testament scholars point out that this language of you've made it a den of thieves or den of robbers, because a word that's often translated insurrectionist it's the same word that Jesus uses when they come for him in the garden. And he says, Look, you could you know, what was I doing? Am I an insurrection? It's the same word as used for the two guys who got crucified alongside Jesus. The old King James says, two robbers or something, both thieves, but it's a word that means people who were who were against the government, they weren't insurrectionist. So, so Jesus, as as one scholar, Grant, and Lake grant Osbourne says, He indicts these folks were using the temple as a isn't his words, a mafia like stronghold. So his point is that the temple has lost its function. So when he's upsetting the tables, it's more than just about the money. It's about the way power is being used in, in Jerusalem there, at least among some religious elite, rather. And if that's true, I'm like, Whoa, pig indictment that the religious elite are using the church for their own power and purposes, and I think you'll see it that upsets those tables Yeah. Rohadi 51:55 Reverend Dr. Edwards, thank you so much for joining us. It's always a treat to have someone come in with such high credentials and experience and talk to you as a friend. That's affirmation to generations of leaders who are coming up behind the experience and the leadership of Dr. Edwards. Reverend Dr. Edwards. You can find him on Twitter and Instagram, Rev. Dr. Dre. Find his book might from the margins wherever fine books are sold, like your local bookstore and not that trash heap, Amazon. This is a episode an episode that I think I'll be coming back to often. I kept it all in one hour. But there are key pieces here both of a glimpse to future leadership but also a sense for marginalised people of what it means to recenter themselves and to raise their voice to become mighty from the margins and basically to create from the margins, a new way of being a new foundation a reimagination of faith. Well, that's going to be it for season four. Although there are rumours a bonus episode will come out in a month. Rumours the rumours are true. But Dr. Edwards closes us off here. Thank you so much. You can support this podcast check it out. rowhani.com you can find me at ro Hattie on Twitter and Rowhani dot magaziner on Instagram and Facebook. Please share this podcast far and wide. Let me know what you thought of it. Tell your mom, your mom's friends, your friends and everybody. That's it for now as we prep up for the bonus episode and also Season Five