Rohadi  0:21  
Season Three faith in oppression five podcasts coming at you from treaty seven territory. Calgary, Alberta, Canada. I am ro Hattie. This is a part two of a two part series with Bernadette Arthur. Hey, by the way, that intro and the outro switched it up for season three, courtesy of Mr. John Corbin out of Toronto, Ontario, look him up on Spotify or wherever find albums or sold Bandcamp to. So for free, support your local artists. Thanks, John for the samples. This episode as I alluded to, in the intro of episode one of season three, this is one you don't want to miss. There are some deep thoughts introspection and a perspective from a minority voice both of us but a unique one from Bernadette here who has worked within one of the dominant institutions, the Christian Reformed Church, in the capacity of anti racism, justice. And today in this podcast, she's going to share some insight. Not only insight about her time with the CRC, I think her experience is just like every other denomination right now at least dominant white Euro centred denomination that you may encounter. And that is a reality of an inability to deal with white supremacy. So when I use that word, I don't mean white supremacy within the lens of there are white supremacists running the show which it could be true. But there is a dominant way of thinking that has impacted what we believe how we believe it. And also who belongs just to name a few. Listen closely to some of the metaphors that Bernadette shares. I'll ruin it for you now, listen to the baking metaphor. That one made me stop and pause and I had to think about that I'm going to put it in a book. And it's totally right. If you want to do some introspection about your own church, or your denomination, the baking metaphor is going to ruin you. Without further ado, episode number two season three Bernadette Arthur from a shared table, look her up in the show notes. Take it away. We want to switch gears and talk about your experience now after your experience in the Adventist church, or maybe during you spent some time working in the CRC the Christian Reformed Church, they had a very specific role. What was the role called Rights race, race, racist relations,

Speaker 2  3:18  
advocate race relations racist advocate, race relations advocate.

Rohadi  3:24  
I was close did you walk into this job? You had to have? I want to know the process here. No, no, that's not the right question. Now would you bring us through your experience here to something that I would presume would be helpful but then wound up perhaps being less hopeful but their powers and forces at work that man if you as a person of colour, or as a black woman, you want to stay in those places they will slowly eat at you and take your soul?

Speaker 2  4:04  
Yeah, I am not gonna lie. Sometimes I'm triggered by the word hope and hopeful. I think everybody has to make meaning for themselves around what hope is. I can't do that. And I feel like there's a lot of times where especially in that context, like give us hope at the end. And I'm like

Rohadi  4:27  
so in your teaching, like even in that space, your your hope even looks different than their hope that they're trying to achieve.

Speaker 2  4:36  
You Yeah. So I'm always like, you know, what was hopeful? I think what was remind myself of your question, you triggered me with that hope

Rohadi  4:50  
question, while you walk into these spaces, and this is now I mean, it's going to be your story, but I think it's very akin to any other story of of a person of colour walking into a white institution, and particularly white Evangelical, and having a sense that change can be made. And so you make the attempt, and some give their life into that for little, and then others realise quickly that oh my gosh, this is not all what I thought it was going to be

Unknown Speaker  5:22  
if you enter into any type of culture disrupting status quo shifting justice establishing role in an institution, especially. But I would even say in an organisation, etc, where they were not built. And I'm sorry, especially when you are doing that culture shifting work in a way that that was not on their radar when they started.

Rohadi  6:04  
It started the your role or started as an

Speaker 2  6:10  
institution as an entity. Yeah. I would like to say that you will be quickly disillusioned. If you feel like one, this is going to be work that will be done in your lifetime. Oh, boy, too. If you feel that there will be no resistance around adopting the things that need to the beliefs, the beliefs and the practices that need to be adopted in order to actually disrupt the current flow of culture, and that'll that can be very painful. If you don't go in realising that and I'm not trying to be I'm not trying to be fatalistic or doom and gloom, or I just like really think it's just the reality of a thing. Right?

Rohadi  7:15  
It's both your experience though, yet the experience of so many others.

Speaker 2  7:20  
Yeah, and it's also it's also just like, when I if I'm baking a cake, it's hard after that cake is baked to give it a different flavour, might be able to drizzle some peanut butter on top of it, maybe some jam, and give it a little bit of a different flavour. But the flour is already, you know, needed into the batter, the eggs, the sugar, you can't make that diabetic, even. I mean, like, you can't be like, oh, there's diabetics now, and we got to change this interview mean, change the way that this cake is constructed, the cake is already constructed Retron it's just not it's just not going to happen. You know?

Rohadi  8:02  
Is that a bird of that? Special? That metaphor?

Speaker 2  8:06  
I think it is. I think that's really just okay. To me.

Rohadi  8:11  
That is an exceptional metaphor. I love it.

Speaker 2  8:15  
I'm glad you appreciate it. Thanks a whole spirit. No, but that's the reality of the thing. And honestly, one of the reasons why I left and it's no shade to the Christian Reformed Church, etc. One of the reasons why I left was I did get a bit of a spiritual revelation, which was interesting, because I felt, you know, very disjointed in my spiritual relationship with God at that time, but this was very clear, Bernadette who did not build this house. And if there's a strong man in the house, if we go back to, you know, that scripture passage, the person to bind up that strong man is not you, the people who built that house, they need to feel like, we need the strong man out. I can't be they can't be saying, hey, there's a strong man in the house and we want to, you know, we want to get him out. And protect going up there and, you know, like, deal with the strong man. And every, you know, every day I'm going in and getting my ass whooped, or sometimes given to me, and sometimes we're able to have a, you know, a cordial conversation, and you don't I mean, but like, I'm engaging with the strong men, but everybody else in the house isn't in fact, they're still feeding him, you know, three square meals. Oh, shucks, you know, like, he still has a whole suite. You know what I mean? Like all of those things, and I was just like, it's not my strong man to, to bind to lined up your strong man and in solidarity, we will work towards doing what needs to be done to refurnish your house or to restructure or to completely flatten it. And in any mean build a new thing, which is that's where I tend to go. We just need a whole new things. Amen. But I just realised that it wasn't you don't you mean? Like the cake was already it was already baked?

Rohadi  10:28  
Mm hmm. That's, that's gonna be a book somewhere. This strong man runs the house,

Speaker 2  10:36  
a strong man runs a house. And you know it because, and that's and that's what that's why sometimes, folks of colour other people who experienced marginalisation in these communities, they're like, what they've invested money. You know, like, they're paying me to come in until like, talk to the strong man and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I'm like, but are they invested in that? And they're the only ones because it was their grandparents and their great grandparents that like, built the rafters, and you don't I mean, that are still, you know, doing all of the things to maintain this house? That's when you start getting the pushback, because Oh, no, but let's, let's not take down that beam. Because, um, you know, my grandma grandfather built not being let's not, you know, you mean, like, take off that

Rohadi  11:23  
beam has so much history? Right. Right. We, we just can't throw away our history,

Speaker 2  11:29  
right? And so I'm like, you don't have to throw up like any mean, like, let it all play. But let's, how are we restoring this? How are we? And a lot of times when you really, really look into it, there's very few people in these organisations and institutions that really want to do that work, of flattening the structure and restarting. It's kind of nervous for me to say that, because I still work with these organisations. And what I do have hoping is people, I have hope. And when I say people, I mean, I have hope in the Spirit's work in people, I don't have hope in the institutions. I don't have hope in the institutions that were not built with black and brown folks in mind,

Rohadi  12:19  
there are essentially none. In our context in Canada.

Speaker 2  12:23  
Yeah, there's very, very, very few. And then, you know, for those of us who are doing our own things, or we have built our own things, we need to, I would say it's the black and brown folks who probably can do the renovations. white folk, so they can't renovate, they need to flatten that structure. Because we still need to do our own work of thinking about how we've internalised white supremacy, or how we

Rohadi  12:54  
rebuild the same thing. Yeah,

Speaker 2  12:57  
and a lot of ways and a lot of a lot of some of the things that we've done, we have rebuilt it, some of our, you know, associations and culture, interning compensation so that we have definitely replicated some of those things. But I feel like those things can more do renovations, like those institutions can more do the renovation, like how do we tweak and intervene and shift and redecorate and renovate? But these white institutions, these predominantly white institutions that were built like the educational the criminal justice system, which isn't really a criminal justice system, the law, like all of those systems, health care system, yeah, every system, every system, Islam, they just they need to be. They just need to be re Vamped. Like, like, start, let's start again, let's start again,

Rohadi  13:52  
the end that stuff because people don't have an imagination that I don't even so when you say defund the police, for example, my imagination stopped short of what does it look like without any police because that's literally what it means. So we lack an imagination to help us down the road of what this new system and perhaps not in our lifetime, perhaps only in the age to come that something like this would happen. This is one of the weaknesses of and white folks are all up on this. Abraham Kennedy's Dr. Kennedy's book on on how to be an anti racist and that his his primary and as is for the general market, right? But his primary argument is that you're there racist or anti racism and our mechanism towards becoming anti racist and society, I suppose, is to enact anti racist policies and to tear down racist policies. But doing that work is merely at the policy level. We're not talking about the structures. We're not talking about the bones or the beams or the cake. Those things need to shift and change. And ultimately, I'm with you on this one, I don't think they can know, I don't know if that is a matter of of hope, there is no hope in those spaces. I don't know how God works, God has far more hope than I and and, and God works in mysterious ways. So I sense that there are places there were predominantly white institutions, and let's say exclusively, and white churches can go, I don't think it's in a space of being fully diverse or inclusive, is there's just no capacity for that there's no formation of what that potentially looks like. But there might be a little shift to be a little bit more inclusive. And maybe that's a little bit better. But the whole completed shift, or the new imagination for something that is fully inclusive, that's not coming from the centre.

Speaker 2  16:00  
Yeah, and I think that, like, I'm not quite sure why we've become so enamoured or attached to some of these things. They, it served its purpose, you know, what I mean?

Rohadi  16:16  
Which things,

Speaker 2  16:18  
these institutions, you know, if it served its purpose. And now we we've established that we need an attorney mean, like it needs a new purpose, then, like, I don't understand why there's such attachment. But usually there's attachment because it you're messing with people's power and access to resources and their ability to to maintain that

Rohadi  16:44  
100% Yet the last shall be first.

Speaker 2  16:49  
Yeah, yeah, so I just kind of feel like, um, like, for me, church is much bigger than an institution, an institution can be the vehicle by which you don't immediately do church type things. And you don't I mean, but if we found that the institution that has been built, it's just not serving its purpose anymore, then there's still something greater, something more richer and robust than the actual institution. And so I feel like, right now, we're in this place of transition. And I mean, a lot of the work that I do is with institutions and church institutions, and whatever. And I see it more as like. And the work that I do there, I do it because of the people, not because I'm committed to the institution, per se, but I see the work that I'm doing right now, and a lot of like dei consultants and stuff like that. I feel like a lot of this work is more creating spaces and places for this transition of what the new thing is to come. So I don't feel like oh, like, I'm gonna, again, that's probably not the thing that you should put in here. But I don't feel like the work that I'm doing with this specific institution is going to transform institution to this place of like, yeah, we've all got it. And you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's going to be absolutely different. And whatever. I feel like if that happens, it'll be an anomaly. But I feel like it's more doing work, to support this transition that's happening, of institutions, crumbling and new things needing to be erected.

Rohadi  18:33  
I think that and let's go down that road here. I think that the institution is some will crumble and disappear, some will just continue to recycle itself. When you look at mainline traditions, such as the United Church of Canada, they have been at 90, they've lost 9% of members, they're still losing. that's been happening for decades. When we look at white evangelicals, it's most of those churches, not most, but some are resilient, they are maintaining enough they have enough babies basically to, to stay open. In many respects, I think that institutions are capable of incremental shifts, they can do that. But they're not going to go down the space of reimagining what it means to gather even in and this is what 2020 has done to us. And it's chaos, is that it has this pandemic world now that shifted us and made pastors realise or leaders that they can never go back to the way things were, and that people are not coming back to the way things were. So few really care. You know, like, Oh my God, I don't have 30 minutes of preaching and 30 minutes of singing every week, like what do I do with myself? There's not a lot of people who are like that. And now the push towards equity and all the anti racist movements are picking up steam for the same purpose of reimagining what it might look like life beyond this, and I don't think the institution can go all the way I can incrementally shift and pick up some pieces along the way. So they could potentially become slightly more anti racist. Will they ever become fully diverse, though? No, never. So that really leaves us in a space of what is next. And I appreciate you sharing your story with the CRC. And I want everyone to hear that this is not a unique CRC story by any stretch of the imagination. This is any white institution. And in the Canadian context, that's any institutional church, essentially. So that this is what it looks like inside even when you're an ally, even when you are the pet to use. Dr. Ra. Dr. Rob, do you hear that the threat of the pet as a person of colour in a leadership position, let's now spend the rest of our time talking about what could be next because we centre too much of the conversation about revitalising or saving the institution as if it needs saving, perhaps it's just going to do its thing. And that's cool. And go and do your thing over there. We too busy making our own thing over here. What does this look like? What does this look like? No. Is this now hopeful? Are we getting into hope now? What does it look like to hold space to do community to find a place of full belonging and dropping hints to my next book of Finding Full belonging for marginalised people? I don't have the full answer to that. But can we can we can we wrap

Speaker 2  21:41  
about this? Okay. What can the new the new thing look like? Um, what can the new thing look like? I think that it is incumbent, I'm thinking that it is incumbent for us to be to be creating spaces where we are able to express our faith that allows for, for Marriott expressions of faith, and saying that it almost seems like all that's really scary, like what would that look like or whatever. But I think of DCC, I think of how there are some people who are trying to consider the ways that they encountered and see to God through or in Saga, or inexperienced God through maybe their Hindu practices and upbringing, and how that connects to the story and the person of Christ, or somebody else who's trying to do that with you don't I mean, other streams of other streams of religion. And I think it's going to be necessary for us to create a container, maybe not even have a container, but enough space for all of us, especially when you're talking about reclaiming things that have been told that have been said, are, that's evil. That's literally mean like, there needs to be enough space for. Not for us to have this sense of like, oh, this is what we all believe in that we're all. But more a sense of this is the journey that we are on to understand who we are, who God is, and what are the ways that colonialism and whiteness, how that has been stripped from us, or caused us to be very unimaginative with the ways that we see and know and experience God. That sounds probably sounds really scary and stuff like that. But I feel like all the boxes that Christianity created, we have to create spaces where there's much less boxes, and there's much less space for people to experience God in ways that are not so constricted and defined.

Speaker 2  25:00  
You Mm hmm. And the ways that he or she has revealed themselves through. Yeah, through different forms of religion, I definitely am committed to again, like I said, the person of Christ and Christ being connected to God. But this idea that like, and crisis connection to God in terms of Christ being the way the truth and the life, but I think this reminds me of as a story. Remember, maybe about was probably about six years ago, I had a mentor in the community development round, they also do work as a base community development. And, well, that's a practice that I, I seek to follow.

Speaker 2  26:16  
I remember her telling me a story about a couple who they're from India. And they had, and they had come into relationship with Christ. So they considered they were Christians, because when I was Christians, but still had the altars, they had their altars. And I remember being like really offended by that, like, but how could they be Christian? Blah, blah, blah? Yeah, yeah, I remember. But now like, I have much more space for that. And it's not necessarily because I don't, it's not because I like I need to.

Speaker 2  27:09  
I need to, because before I needed to be like, we all do this. We all think this, we all believe this in remain and that feels safe to me. That feels like, I can be like, Oh, that's, that's what Christianity means. Like, that's the stamp of it. But when I think about how pervasive this like, white colonial force has been, I just think like we've lost a lot in terms of our ability to understand how God is manifested in this world, whether it's through different religions or cultures or any mean cultural practices, etc. So small, and so that's one thing, the new thing has to have enough space, where we're like, Okay, this is maybe what we agree upon. And for me, maybe the agreement is more about the ethics than necessarily all the beliefs, like I need to be convicted about. kind of goes back to that, like conversation that Paul had. And x around, you know, it was asked Corinthians about, you know, food being sacrificed to idols. Right, like, one person feels like, should eat that food, another person feels like no. And he was trying to bring people together more around the ethics. If I'm offending you, because I'm eating that food. And you know, the language that he uses in this cheeky way is like, you know, those who have weaker consciences conscience. consciences? Yeah. Then don't do it. But what was motivating the principles that the ethics so what was what isn't motivating the practices was the ethic of love. It wasn't you all need to believe this way, on this specific thing around it really mean food sacrifice to idols. And I would like to see in terms of what does it look like moving forward? More space for that? We haven't had space for that because white colonial you don't I mean, like that agenda, and how its influenced Church does not create space for nuances for mystery. It just doesn't. It doesn't. So I feel like that's going to be necessary, especially as people are trying to understand how to reclaim practices. spiritual practices that they've been told is evil, but is actually leading them into, like, greater fellowship with the divine. Right. And I see that a lot, I think, I think where I see that most readily, like manifested in a way that like, at least I can hold on to, is with indigeneity. indigenous folks understanding of nature of creation, the ways that they engage. Who, for those who practice, like, you know, that way of life, for those who engage, like, it's astounding to me, like, I cannot say that this does not have the divine, you know, what I understand as a divine all over it. And so I think that we need to have more space for that. So that's one thing that was a long, long answer to that. The other thing I would say is we need to have spaces of healing. The ways that we've been told that we are defective. And I'm kind of using a nod to read from an outcome. In the book, my grandmother's hands, one of the things that he constantly says is that we are not defective, we have a lot of trauma responses, a lot of behaviours that we've adapted to survive, you only mean in this realm. And I think a part of creating spaces is that we, you know, the third way, as you call it, is that we create spaces that healing is central, because we can't just come into this and just try to do a new thing and think that we're not all affected by the traumas that we've been. So that has to be huge, can't be seen as something, you know, then that leads to the third thing, it has to be holistic, it has to include not only mind, cuz a lot of this has been centred on mind, what do you believe? What do you believe, but it has to include our guts in our hearts, you know, you know, Love the Lord your God with all of your mind, your heart, your body, your strength, in any mean like, so really, truly creating, like, places of worship and connection where all of that is honoured. I think that's a that's another aspect that's critical. And then I also think about

Unknown Speaker  32:59  
like, I lost my train of thought one second.

Speaker 2  33:11  
Hmm, I think we also need to create space where we are very intentional about not replicating the oppression that we ourselves have experienced. And so although I feel like the spaces of healing are necessary. And I think that those spaces should probably be centred. Primarily, and initially, around just bipoc. Folks, I think that we need to create space, spaces where we are working in solidarity, and we're exercising our leadership capacities in that way. And we're working in solidarity with other communities, including the white community, and this idea that we are the great hope for the future. I think we have an important role to play in the healing that needs to occur. But I don't think that we ourselves only are the great hope, because we are all still human and we're still fallible to wanting to hoard power, and all of that just because we come into black or brown skin doesn't mean that we're now going to be like, Oh,

Unknown Speaker  34:41  
you mean like, I don't want that power. Or you don't I mean, so

Rohadi  34:46  
our deliverance is tied.

Speaker 2  34:48  
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or liberation. Wisdom is definitely tied to each other. And we need to, we need to think about what does it mean for us to be gracious with ourselves and This is, you know, not everybody's here or there but also for me and that embodies the person of Christ is also to be very mindful of what does it look like to include with accountability and responsibility. Those who have Historically and traditionally been in the roles of oppressors,

Rohadi  35:25  
that is partially the vision of our almost wholly the vision of DCC as we meander down that role, that road, as you are sharing a bit about drawing in the different experiences and being okay, in our expressions, and in our own skin, which is one one way to do that. I was thinking of the concept. And I think it's a theological, it is a theological concept, but is one that can serve in in this movement, I think that there is, and this could be just me swinging to one end of the ditch, that there is an impression or a need to have healthy focus. And so I appreciate you centering your focus with mystery on the Christ on this good news figure. And that strikes me as a centred set approach versus a bounded set. And that's that the theological idea of bounded having rules or parameters or fences, not that fences are always bad, but they are guiding us into a specific way. Whereas the centred centred set approach says Christ is in our midst here, when we're all in the in this pursuit towards Jesus. But how you're getting there and where you're at in that pursuit? And even perhaps how close you are or how further away you are, if that's even such a thing. It's a call into the journey towards Christ, and wholeness and fullness of life.

Do you want to add anything to the picture? Of what is to come? Or is that all fit for you? I think that you really outlined it. Or, at least in your answer really, really well.

Speaker 2  37:44  
Um, oh, yeah. I would also say that we need to be attentive ourselves around especially in the Christian realm, around not seeking liberation for one aspect or one identity. And not all. Some people just want liberation, or one experience liberation around race, race related oppressions. And they're fine to have oppressions that exist around those who have different forms, different forms of abilities, or those who are queer. And it's like, we need to ensure that we're working towards the liberation of all and that we have space for that. Even if, you know, not everyone has worked out their theology around certain things or whatever. Like, we can't, we can't be. Yeah, actively oppressing, like, and I think I think that speaks for dynamic dynamicism. We have to be willing to continually be dynamic, continually be willing to look at the ways that we are practising what it looks like to live out Micah, six, eight, like we need to be constantly and not be like, Oh, that can't be us. Because we're bipoc are part of a marginalised community, you know what I mean? But we need to be willing to interrogate? Who are the people in our community that don't feel safe? And sometimes, sometimes we're just an assumption that like, oh, well, we're all bipoc. So we should all be given a mean, like we should all feel comfortable being here. Well, no. There's still ways that we take on the identity of oppressors amongst each other. And that that also needs to be interrogated. So I would say those things. Those are some of the things that are helpful for us moving forward. Yeah, around like what what can you know church Depression look like. I think it requires all of us, not just bipoc folks. It requires it to be holistic and centred on healing. And it requires us to. It requires us to be, it requires us to lean on the sense of being dynamic and emergent, which means when we are told that somebody is experiencing oppression, you know, in our midst that we're not like, No, we can't do that, you know,

Rohadi  40:32  
or you don't know what oppression is.

Unknown Speaker  40:34  
Yeah, yeah. And again, I think it has to be focused more on the ethics of Christ than all of the foundational beliefs, because I think that if anybody says, like, oh, all these beliefs are unlock.

Speaker 2  40:54  
You don't I mean, like, I figured it out. These are, you know, used to kind of make fun all the time, but you don't I mean, like adventures have 27, fundamental fundamental beliefs. Somewhere in between, you know, another one was added. Now, there's 28, fundamental beliefs and like, huh, yeah, there has to be enough room for growth. Enough group enough. Yeah. enough room for growth? I think I would say one more thing. Well, actually, maybe I did say it in the healing. But yeah, I think I think we need to be patient and gracious with ourselves in this process of deconstructing, I think that we ourselves can like maybe almost like replicate the fear that we're trying to, you don't mean like, again, from that shift from fear to freedom is that we're so fearful of being like white people. Sometimes we can, you know, what I mean, like, box our own selves in so I also just think about that, like, Yeah, I think we need to give ourselves enough space and spaciousness to, to just learn what it is to be in givers house patients in that process of what does it mean just to be because we're all trying to figure it out.

Rohadi  42:09  
Before we cap off here, maybe you want to share a little bit about some of the work that you do we have a shared table, but you have other consultancies as well.

Speaker 2  42:20  
I do have a company called coculture. Collective that I'm we do training and consulting work in the areas of diversity, equity and inclusion.

Rohadi  42:33  
This is your company.

Speaker 2  42:36  
Yeah, so with FERC folks are looking at ways to help support the work of cultural transformation towards, you know, being more inclusive and equitable. They can definitely connect with me. And yeah, I hope to offer culture shifting solutions.

Rohadi  43:06  
If you have a chance, check out some of Bernadette's work. I'm going to leave the links in the show description. You can check them out. I think Instagram would be the primary way, maybe a Facebook pages. Well, thanks so much Bernadette for chiming in for teaching us for offering your wisdom. I love the metaphor, as I alluded to on the intro. And then we spoke about the hard questions that many institutions who are now starting to notice, congregations are being drawn towards the call for justice, particularly around racialized injustice. But you can't go too far within dominant institutions without fighting with the strong man. How about that? I think there's something to say about the hope that is to come about what it looks like to belong in church institutions. I don't know if there is belonging for marginalised people. But for church communities, I think we need to have a vision that opens up the door for belonging for everyone, not just those who assimilate to dominant culture. But for everyone marginalised people racialized minorities, there needs to be a place where you can live out your full self in the context of community that looks like that picture in the end, in Revelation, where we have every tribe, tongue and nation, which is just another word for ethnicity, we're all together. Our liberation is tied. Our hope is tied. So why don't our communities look like the hope that we find in Scripture? We can do better, and people who are going to be needed at the forefront of what better looks like will be the marginalised people I believe that so without further ado, we leave you into the next episodes which will include a deconstruction around worship, which means music for most Western Christians, you're going to enjoy that with Dru Brown. And we'll also have a couple of episodes speaking on anti racism, the theology of racism, white supremacy, and all that good stuff. Thank you so much for downloading this would you share it widely? Follow me on social media, you can follow Cypher church as well. Most updates will come through my Instagram or Facebook page that always helps indie productions such as this podcast and indie writings such as the books that are coming out. I have one coming out next year. I don't know who maybe me maybe a publisher, and there'll be another one fingers crossed with the community from decolonizing Christianity putting out some material which will be really neat. That's still in its incubating phase. Otherwise, you can support this podcast by finding the details on the cypher church or rowhani.com websites. Take care. Thanks for listening