Rohadi  0:21  
Faith in the fresh five. This is season three. Welcome. This is a unique season because I have drawn in voices from across this country and they're all POCs people of colour are Christians of colour I've actually pulled from the decolonizing Christianity Canada group but they're just friends. It's not just raising up DCC for all y'all out there. Christians of colour looking for a place of belonging, this might be a spot. Come check us out on Facebook. In this season, I am excited to share with you a number of guests. This is a two part episode to launch off season three. Bernadette Arthur joins me now Bernadette has a long resume working in diversity or anti racism specifically in the church most recently, but now she has seen the light and I'm just kidding, Bernie. She's working for herself in a very cool endeavour, a new venture called a shared table. I'll put some info where you can connect in in the show notes and learn more about Bernadette. Bernadette and I along with Mr. Ito, are the three co founders of decolonizing Christianity, Canada, we don't talk too much about the group in these two episodes, which are split in to two, the first one being an exploration of reimagining faith, encountering faith a new Bernadette shares her story, I really appreciate how candid she is about sharing what it's like growing up in her context around faith. And I think it's applicable to a lot of stories out there. So you want to listen in to just the transition and the challenges and the deconstruction of faith, while clinging to the person of Jesus and who Jesus is and how to come out ultimately on the other side, maybe not with more answers, but with a sense of perseverance around our faith journey. Part two will be an exploration, a deep dive into anti racism, justice, and so forth. Specifically in the church that is going to be a gem of an episode. There are so many things that I learned, in part two of this two parter that Bernadette shares. She's a teacher for me in some of these aspects of anti racism, and I value her voice, she has a couple of metaphors that you're going to want to hear. So that will be these two parts. In the next two part series again, Drew Brown, Drew Brown, you might notice him or remember him from such places as various Christian worship, bands or awards or songs. He's a musician. But we're going to talk about deconstructing worship specifically, and, of course, the press for justice, both in our country and beyond. Lastly, we will have a couple of episodes with me chatting about what's happening in the world right now a theology around anti racism and justice and decolonizing the Christian faith. And then to cap it off, or somewhere in between, we'll have Chad Lucas my friend out in Nova Scotia. All these episodes come at the same time and Chad's episode is very pertinent to our present day right now not to date our podcast because you could be picking this up a year from now. But in October, mid October, there are things happening in Nova Scotia that are very evident of colonisation. The legacy of of the colonisers and racism. So without further ado, we're going to jump into the conversation with Bernadette and there will be an outro with me, and then straight into season pardon me into part two, which will be the next episode another Intro So hang on tight season three is coming at you. In this podcast, we want to talk a little bit about our own experiences. We're in season three and that is the anti racism series centering some bipoc voices Come on the podcast. We've done this before, but we're also being intentional. And one of the stories that we can share with Bernadette and I is the experience of working for myself. It's growing up in the dominant institution, a white institution, white evangelicalism, specifically for both of us, and slowly coming to the realisation for me it was slow. But for others, it's much faster, a kind of awakening, or when the scales fall from the eyes or the colloquial term of wokeness. Two systems that are at play. So we want to dive into some stories here, Bernadette and talk briefly. First off, can you share just a little bit of of, oh, I'm going to do it. Hey, one of the things I don't like when evangelicals to share, share with us your testimony, or when you came to know, Jesus, that's not what I'm asking. Uh, give us a picture, however, of your people. Your story of faiths growing up?

Speaker 2  6:09  
Yeah. Um, I like this question because it it you know, when you're when sometimes when you're growing up, or I'll be even more specific, when I was growing up, I don't think I realised how formative how important certain experiences were. But now as an adult to look back. There's a fondness of being able to speak of my mother waking up myself and my four siblings up at 6am. To do morning devotion. Or her coming in, you know, late at night, after, you know, an eight hour shift, you know, making her way back on the bus to get home, being exhausted as eating, and then her insisting that we have evening devotions. And she would literally be falling asleep on herself in the middle of a prayer. And we would be like, begging to like, Okay, let's go to bed. And she just, she would just keep going. So, I mean, those are the things that make me think about. Yeah, my early introductions to faith to God. It's the resoluteness the dedication of a mother who had, you know, a lot of things on her plate, but that was adamant that we would do be exposed to the teachings of Christ. And I mean, so much. So to the point, there is one point in our home and depending on which sibling you ask, they, they will tell you about the impact of this for me, I, you know, look back of it. And it's, again, a fond memory, probably not so much when I was growing up in, you know, in it, but there was, you know, a point in our household where there was no cable, just the VHS and focus a whole bunch of friggin Focus on the Family Video. No. And that's all that we were allowed to watch. Talk about being indoctrinated into, like whiteness and white culture.

Rohadi  8:27  
A lot of like, sincere hero. Yeah,

Speaker 2  8:29  
exactly. A lot of prairie. But she really you don't I mean, like, we grew up in social housing, and she really wanted to, that was her way of protecting us was by making sure that you know, we were at choir practices on a Wednesday and then a Friday Bible study, and you don't I mean, all those things. Yeah, but for myself, they're fond memories. And that was my introduction. And a lot of I, I credit, my upbringing, not only to my family members, etc, but I grew up in black Caribbean, Canadian church. And so a lot of my experiences around community and, you know, relating to people that were older than me and caring for, you know, younger ones and all of that. Learning how to speak publicly, and present and all of those things came from those experiences. So, yeah, from as early as I can remember, I remember I can remember going to, you know, different churches in the Pentecostal church from the Pentecostal tradition. And then my mom encountered or met some, a family that was had just as many children as she did. A married couple who lived nearby And who kind of befriended her and taught her about Adventism. And so, um, my mom became Adventist, and that really did not jive with me because it just felt like very connected to Catholicism. I don't know if I just just the experience, like the worship experience, and all of that was very different than what I, you know, been exposed to in the Pentecostal realm. In my teenage years, I didn't really want to have anything to do with faith because it was cramping, my clubbing style and all that stuff, shucks. But in my early 20s, I was actually dating somebody whose family was Adventist, and his mom would like, all the time, be like, please come to church, please come to church, and I think just one time and even sometimes he'd be like, Hey, let's go to church. And I'm like, you realise that like, we're not the poster couple for church, right? We live together, we're shacking up, like, there's a lot of different things that could go wrong here and that we'll probably have to stop doing and I was like, I'm not about being a hypocrite. I think just to appease this woman, I didn't probably didn't want her to think that I was just completely some Jezebel that was stealing away her son. I took her is your podcast ready for this? Bring him Yeah, no, I I agreed to go to church with her. It was something like typical evangelical crusade like tent meeting type of thing. Oh, yeah. I know, I remember what the I remember where the church was, don't remember what happened in the service, but definitely felt like I was captivated by I was in the spirit of God, because I don't even know if it was a message. I don't remember any of those things. I just remember feeling like, I'm, I've come home to something. And I needed to continue in that. And so basically, at the age of like, 21, I was like, no more clubbing. No more, you know, partying, and all of that. And all my friends were like, What the hell like what's wrong with you? Like, who are you now? Yeah, I ended up breaking up with that guy. Because I was like, we're not in a equally relationship. I needed this. I need a man of God. Yeah, so there was a lot of things that shifted and Adventism was the vehicle that God used to bring me back into relationship with him, or a deeper sense of intimacy with Him. And then yeah, from that time, yeah, I have found myself serving in a lot of different local church capacity, church capacities, whether I'm denominational or local church, and for a number of different denominations. I went to Tyndale, which is a Christian university, in Toronto. And so now, you know, in 2020, I can honestly say that I wouldn't affiliate myself with any specific denomination. I would definitely say that I'm more of a Christ follower. Definitely still feel very much called to serving the body of Christ, in whatever ways that the body the body manifests itself, whether it's, you know, with the folks who identify themselves as the knee or as the elbow or you know, I mean, like, yeah, I see it all is wanting the same, really. And so still definitely feel called to that don't feel like I'm not a part of that and still convicted by the words of Christ. But definitely. What do I say? I'm definitely not as hung up about a more, I would say that my faith expression now is more about my ethics. What does love look like? What is the practice of loving look like? It's more about how to why experience and know the divine the Creator Christ through the many ways that the divine like chooses to reveal themselves. Yeah, it's much more about those things. And it's about some of the things that actually helped to route me in the beginning, which was gotta do your Bible studies in the morning and you don't I mean, like, so things look very different. Some people might say, you're not a good Christian or you know what I mean?

Rohadi  14:54  
Of course they would. You know, you don't fit whatever box that's supposed to be Yeah, yes, I

Speaker 2  15:02  
definitely don't feel like I fit in quite like into the box but definitely still definitely convicted that it is the path that I want to be on and that following Christ is something that is important for me and that yeah, I it's not something I can rationalise. If I was trying to rationalise it, I probably wouldn't be here to be honest. But I'm definitely feeling like my faith expression allows me to live in much more touch tension and have much more mystery and questions around it. And it doesn't have to look like the ways that I've been told it has to look like and I'm much more comfortable with that. Now in 2020. So that's a long ass answer to your question. But

Rohadi  15:53  
it's starting to put together the pieces of this unfolding story that we are sharing. Would it be you just shared in the second half there of a process of deconstruction, of faith and then coming into a place that you're comfortable with that and you use the word of mystery? Would you say tell me if this is kind of accurate, of of your experience and deconstruction, that the mystery of Christ is one that is answered? The longings of your humanity the best?

Speaker 2  16:32  
I wouldn't say that his completely answered, because I said, like, there's a lot of questions still.

Rohadi  16:38  
Because there wouldn't be mystery. There's a complete,

Speaker 2  16:41  
yeah, yeah. But I think I'm definitely still compelled. There's still something that compels me, towards Christ. And there's a lot of times where I want to separate Christ from even like, you know, the scriptures, right, like, and some of the authors in the scriptures. Because for me, Christ just feels like it feels like that expression of the divine feels like it represents more of what feels true to me. Yeah, I feel like Christ did enough and said enough. That I'm, like, completely compelled. But does it answer like, all my questions, you know, especially when you start like, folding in, you know, the God of the Old Testament, as we say, or, you know, folding in the writings of New Testament writers, especially that wonderful guy, Paul. Yeah, there's yeah, there's a lot of questions. And I believe that Christ is in all of those other things that I described. But I would be a liar. If I said that. I'm not still captivated by Christ, a being who? Yeah, spoke about turning the other cheek who, like, also, like practice that lived that to the point of death? Yeah, they're just something seems something very real and true about Christ. But I'm not definitely not willing to just try to rationalise, but also not trying, I'm not willing to abandon because I don't understand.

Rohadi  18:22  
And you shouldn't I think the to linger in the mystery is part of the power of faith. And you have to just sit in tension, often, you must be okay with that.

Speaker 2  18:33  
I mean, you don't have to, you can choose not to. And then I mean, that's a choice and not in and of itself. But there's enough, there's enough there for me to to make that choice to do it.

Rohadi  18:48  
I would almost value the mystery and the uncertainty over certainty. I think you're right, that you can choose a faith that is governed by certainty. But that leaves you at the times of the lowest of lows or places where you don't have answers or can't find the appropriate ones. It leaves you on the outskirts.

Speaker 2  19:14  
Yeah, or I think my experience of needing to have a lot of answers and my adventus siblings might have issues with me saying this but I think that was a part of the reason that I was attracted to Adventism because it felt like it had a lot of answers and certainty and even though they probably wouldn't say that but it just felt like you know, there was an answer for everything and everything could be proof texted and bla bla bla and that's probably the reason as somebody who's, you know, just innately like bent towards what is the good thing and the right thing to do what suggesting to do I want to do that, you know, That's like what attracted me. That's what you know. Yeah, I think help to like, make me feel safe. But then when you really like check it out. I feel like a lot of those actions and the desire is to make things very neatly boxed and answerable, was really driven by fear. Hmm,

Rohadi  20:25  
okay, we weren't have to dig no into, into this moment here, I was gonna switch gears but reveal to us there. So what what what aspect of fear was governing the necessity for certainty.

Speaker 2  20:40  
I just feel like, again, I'll try to use my experience, I just feel like when we need or Yeah. When I need to know something in and out back and forth and all of that. I remember I used to like, go on a little tangent. Remember, I used to do like Bible studies, I used to teach Bible studies, and then went to his church. And, you know, just by nature of who I am, there was a lot of questions, a lot of like, critical, you know, critical analysis, or we, you know, seeing these texts can there's another another way to see these texts, and I would teach people like, you know, let's, let's do let's approach it from this way, not just, you know, from what people have already said, I remember like, you know, there'd be tonnes of people like, hello, my coworkers gay, like, what do I say, What do I do? And this fixation with, like, trying to do things perfectly or right, and it almost makes our concept of God feel very fragile. You know, what I mean? Like, I need to be able to understand it to explain it to somebody, like, you know, what is the rebuttal that I give? If somebody and I'm like, I don't know, that feels like it's, it's, it's, um, stemmed by fear, fear of doing things wrong, fear of like, then what God is that that you're actually serving? You don't I mean, if you feel like you have to protect the, the image of God, you don't I mean, if you feel like you can't pray, and ask for healing, or you need to pray and ask for healing, because if you don't, then how will others see God? And I'm like, that's all very fragile. And it feels like it's more based on fear and anxiety than it's actually based on a sense of freedom of knowing that like, what is his?

Rohadi  22:35  
Yes, yes. Well, I

Speaker 2  22:36  
felt like to freedom. Yeah. So I felt like all of those, like, you know, if this happens, I'm going to do this. If this if you don't, I mean, if somebody asks you this, and you need to have an answer for this, like, be ready to give an answer. I just felt like that was and because it's so analytical and logical. I just felt like, yeah, the root of that stuff is fear. I remember, like, I remember one time, I was working somewhere, and I felt like, I need to leave. It's like, you know, it's time to shift. And I was like, having this fight with like, what my gut my intuition or you know what I mean, my spirit was saying, with this sense of, like, Would God punish me? If I didn't if I wasn't doing this at the right time. And I really had to check it out and be like, where is this coming from? But I feel like my whole faith experience wasn't even though we were like, we're doing this by faith. And I don't think this is confined just to the Adventist church experience, because I've been in enough denominations to have a sense that, like, when we do all of this, like, we need to be able to figure everything out, sort everything out. You know, and there's like, this anxiety around not knowing and, and living intention, then I feel like it really reflects, yeah, a fear that maybe things aren't what we thought it was, and the protection of that. Through all of these answers, and even a mean and there's no room for Wonder, mystery. No one like there's no Bible study of like, any mean like, leader or pastor that's like, we're very few that are like, I don't know. No, I'm still trying to figure that out myself in I mean, that's not that's not the that's not the sermons that you get, you know what I mean? Like they're very like, this is how you believe this is what we should believe, etc. And that yeah, and then I realised that some of the things that I was praying and stuff like that was more motivated by this sense of fear of well you do this God if you don't do it, then did it. Ah, you know what I mean, like versus you are who you are, like, helped me to get any mean understand what that is, and

Rohadi  24:45  
it says a lot about our picture of God. Mm hmm. Do you find that the fear was a fear of disappointing God or was it a fear of of Receiving the wrath of God, perhaps a combo?

Speaker 2  25:05  
I think both I've heard different things from different people. I know that there's a lot of people, even myself would have this, even though again, like, this is not the message that was like told by people but like, almost it's like, am I gonna lose God's favour? That that was a huge fair, or just I think ultimately what it can kind of come down to is the fear of is God who you think he, he or she is? You know? And if not, then what does that mean? Yes, yeah. So I think a pair of fear of judgement fear of, I think, yeah, just, yeah, if you can't explain it or understand it, then are you perhaps wasting your time or, you know, it's just a very scary thing for a lot of people. So

Rohadi  25:51  
I appreciate you sharing that story. It's one that I think will be helpful to others who are going through their own process of deconstructing faith, but also trying to make sense of their experiences, or past experiences of faith, when it's okay to ask questions when it's okay to doubt. Is it okay? So, thanks, I appreciate you sharing that. I want to now fill in the gap here between your experiences. So in the middle, you we have this Adventist experience. You grew up in a Caribbean church? Yes, Pentecostal Caribbean, we don't really have in Canada, we don't really have. And this is not my experience. So you can fill in the blanks here. The indigenous black church or the institutional black church, I should say, we don't really have that history, but we do have these ethnic pieces. Would that be an accurate? If I were to compare it to the US, but would that be an accurate assessment of where some of our ethnic traditions come from?

Speaker 2  27:03  
I think that there are a few strands, whether it's like Ethiopian, like Orthodox, or like African ame, African Methodist, Methodist, Episcopal that are like more institutional? Yeah, I wouldn't you'll see bipoc churches,

Rohadi  27:18  
for sure. Yet their their prominence or prevalence in Canada's is quite small.

Speaker 2  27:26  
Yeah, they might not be huge. Yeah, they might not have huge. Um, I also feel like there might be some other denominations from the continent, especially more recently in the last couple of decades that are institutional black, like whether it's like, churches that are from Nigeria, you don't I mean, who have created denominations here. Are they as mainstream as your Anglican Church, etc? No. But they're definitely growing in significance and popularity. And, yeah,

Rohadi  28:00  
I bring that up. Because I think that in speaking with others, who have grown up in, for example, a Haitian church, that there are real dangers of those churches, embodying the same problems of institutional white churches be a patriarchy could be even versions or expressions of white supremacy, that those aspects were prevalent in their church experience, despite being an ethnic or racialized church. And I'm curious to know, what expression you experienced in your was a Caribbean? Or was it 20? Like, you give us a sense here? It is. I asked that because it may not be a question someone in Toronto, or Ontario would ask, but there's so few and at least growing up for sure. For me, there are so few ethnic churches and certainly no black churches to pull experience from and even know that there is a different world out there.

Speaker 2  29:06  
See, I only know the black church context, Canadian experience, it wasn't until my late 20s 30s that I you know, yeah. Opened up, like where began seeing other forms of church expression. But yes, I think like, it's almost like, where can you go where the sun doesn't shine? Where can you go where white supremacy in any mean has not seeped into the culture, or hasn't affected the formation of ethnic minority in Canada churches, because of you know, colonialism, and imperialism and, yeah, and the ways that, you know, evangelism, you know, about missionary work occurred It's hard not to see that. So, for example, in the black Caribbean church context that I was in, you know, stories of like, elders shutting down the power in the church building, because youth were playing drums, even I mean, is the thing, you know, the church that I went to that wasn't, you know, I mean, but there was still these ideas of what is holy and what's not holy. And I feel like most of them, most of them were impacted by white, white, evangelical church culture, I think of like, even the idea of like, in my 20s going to an Adventist church, and in the morning, you couldn't have like, one of the more Caribbean inspired songs like that was for evening church, you only could, you could only could sing the hymns. You know, and we might, you know, did a little umph to it, or you only mean like, you know, modulate and stuff like that. But, you know, the hymns are what's holy. And that's what happens in your divine our, as it was called, and, you know, anything that sounds to ethnic for lack of word, a better word. Yeah, that was, even though it was your own culture that was relegated to a lesser prominent time, because for some reason, it wasn't holy enough.

Rohadi  31:41  
Are these safe spaces for you to live out the fullness of your being?

Speaker 2  31:55  
In some aspects. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Will. Will we ever find a place where we're able to fully? Like, I don't know, like, right, yet, it'd be mean, be able to fully live out the expression of who we are?

Rohadi  32:08  
I would hope so. Come on, why can't we dream and hope for this?

Speaker 2  32:13  
Yeah. Yeah. Um, in some ways, yes. It did. In other ways, no, probably more ideologically, you know, there's a lot of things that I was would question. I remember one time doing a Bible study and elder sat, and I think to kind of, like, keep an eye on like, what's happening? Why is this Bible study growing in such popularity? You had people from other churches, like coming to like, you know, like, leaving their services to come in, you know, hanging out in this Bible study. And, and, you know, it was should have been an hour long was now running for two hours. And, and so, and there was at one point were like, in the middle of my Bible study, he was like, Are you even apprentice? Like, you know, because I was like, what? Yeah, yeah. So I mean, like, I've always, yeah, always challenging status quo. And so yeah, no, I don't think there was there was a place for full expression, but it was definitely a place where I did have expression. It definitely was a place where, you know, maybe I wasn't, I didn't feel like I was being opposed. As feeling like I was being opposed maybe for theological differences, perhaps, or maybe even a little bit of patriarchal behaviour. You know, I mean, because I was a woman, or depending on what church when I was going to, like more intergenerational churches. You know, maybe I felt like, oh, like, you're not taking me seriously, or including me fully because of my age. You don't I mean, like, you feel like I need to just do the Youth Services stuff.

Rohadi  33:49  
Shucks, I hated that. Yeah, this is the worst that youth like, that's, that's my weakness.

Speaker 2  33:57  
But I never I know, I never felt. And those are different forms of, you know, keeping people in their place. And obviously, culture plays a huge part in that, right. You know, some of these, some of our old school especially like Caribbean culture, like you need to be able to pay your dues, and you don't I mean, be old enough, you know, generally before, you know, you can do certain things and whatever. So it's just a part of culture. But it wasn't until I started ministering and serving in white, predominantly white churches where I was like, Oh, you just don't like the finger I'm saying or you don't I mean, like, you seem to be dismissing or sidelining and I felt like it was solely just because of, I'm showing up in as a black woman and you've never really you've never been ever

Rohadi  34:54  
seen countered that Yeah. So now you have a layer. No, it's the it's a different

Unknown Speaker  34:59  
way. Yeah, yeah.

Rohadi  35:03  
That's gonna wrap this part one of part two. I won't do too much in terms of deconstructing or summarising what we just heard other than go straight to the second episode, episode two of season three. We're going to continue this conversation and start to press into issues of racism, white supremacy, white dominance theology in dominant Christian institutions, Canadian context, but that's applicable throughout the West. So get in on that